Space whales

[50gens]

@fralegend015

Then the exoskeleton will be useless since there needs to be a gap between segments

The gaps may be sealed, filled with a substance^[1] that solidifies^[2], it being only removed with brute force when moving an arm is required^[3] and resynthesised when the movement ceases.
The problem is gas leakage from the exposed tissue, the pressure is achieved by mechanical means (imagine a balloon covered with wire netting in a vacuum chamber, preventing its expansion, and then imagine it is not a hallow baloon but flesh, so it doesn’t explode)

@fralegend015

chemical engines are quite inneficent, as such I see no way a creature would be able to evolve them

Why? You just need a lung or a vocal sac or any other sac and use it like a baloon turned upside down and released. It should work in low gravity.(or maybe even in a high gravity planet, if it uses hydrogen balloons and discovers combusting that hidrogen, and then discovers that if you go sideways at a high altitude you don’t have to land and don’t have to maintain a large balloon)

@fralegend015

the slow acceleration of a solar sail would just make them unable to rendezvous.

Why? All objects orbiting the same star the same distance away move at the same speed^[4]. It is even possible to have a circular orbit around the star starting from a planet, slowly increasing the diameter, making many rotations around the star and ending in another planet.

@fralegend015

The probablity that they actually meet an object in the middle of space by pure chance is so low

@50gens

3.2.19.1) The asteroids are quite far from each other{92:1}{12:1,“So Bioships?”}. The species would need to have a very good eyeseight{84:2} (perhaps something like a telescope) to locate another asteroid and move there for resource extraction. It can use rockets or just jump{84:1}, as nothing would stop or slow it down

They wouldn’t go at random directions. In space, it is transparent, you can see where you can go.

@fralegend015

how would they match their orbit to the one of their target?

Not by going directly towards it.^[5] Not being sapient doesn’t mean you can’t calculate how to migrate where you want to migrate.

@fralegend015

How would they decrease their velocity relative to their target?

By accelerating at the first half of the journey, and decelerating at the second half of the journey.

@fralegend015

Chemical rockets are very inneficent, meaning that they would have to use very big amounts of fuel to make significant changes in velocity, which means they will have more mass, which means they will need smore fuel to change yhwir velocity in a significant way, whoch means they will have more mass.

So, getting larger with every generation?^[6]

@fralegend015

Also if they dont reach a place where they can get more resources to create the fuel they would just remain stranded (and not all celestial bodies have the same composition, so they would have to get lucky).

That would add an element of risk. Do you want to use all of your fuel to get to an asteroid first, or be conservative and only use half of it so you have enough to get back. As a hunting trap: put a fake asteroid^[7], when another space whale moves at it, your accomplice also moves at it, the first whale decides to risk it and goes as fast as it can. Then the whales in the asteroid move the asteroid away. You follow the whale which ran out of fuel and hunt it when it starves.
I think playing as a space whale may be even more fun than normal aware stage. There are more variables.

@willow

not if they produce the fuel from food(in the case of the one i made gas) they ate

If they digested the food, then the energy(that can be used to move the organism) is even less then the start. The expelled material should be as low importance as possible, what matters is its mass and how fast it can be thrown.

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1. plant leafs are covered with a waxy cuticle to prevent gas loss ↩︎

2. if flexible materials aren’t possible in space ↩︎

3. like how there is a species that causes damage in itself and breaks open a gap to use as a mouth everytime it wants to feed ↩︎

4. and asteroids stay in the same "belt"s, although it may be challenging to approach those that have eliptical orbits ↩︎

5. the possible directions (and the fuel costs of each) need to be given by the game(if we don’t want the player to constantly do trigonometry and taking the integral for finding the area that is sweeped by a line connecting the organism and the sun) ↩︎

6. and I am defending multiple options at the same time. If rockets can’t evolve in a planet, they can evolve after leaving the planet with geysers ↩︎

7. it is hollow and low mass, easy to accelerate ↩︎

[willow (they/her or yours are was/were)]

for the example i made it is eating gas, absorbing it into a fluid, absorbing that into its body water, and expelling the shit it doesn’t want after making it two highly reactive compounds so they can be ignited

[fralegend015 (Shroudmaster)]

You didn’t understand anything of what I wrote.

@50gens

Why? You just need a lung or a vocal sac or any other sac and use it like a baloon turned upside down and released. It should work in low gravity.(or maybe even in a high gravity planet, if it uses hydrogen balloons and discovers combusting that hidrogen, and then discovers that if you go sideways at a high altitude you don’t have to land and don’t have to maintain a large balloon)

They can’t evolve them not because it is physically impossible, but because it is so impratical and inneficent that they would be unable to use the transition stages, even using the final stage would be extremely inneficent.

@50gens

Why? All objects orbiting the same star the same distance away move at the same speed[4]. It is even possible to have a circular orbit around the star starting from a planet, slowly increasing the diameter, making many rotations around the star and ending in another planet.

Ignoring transfer windows, the acceleration of a solar sail accelerates too slowly to do orbital manuever, plus there is the problem that a solar sail only propels you away from star that is producing the photons, as such you can’t even use it for orbital manuevers.

@50gens

They wouldn’t go at random directions. In space, it is transparent, you can see where you can go.

Seeing where you need to go and actually going there are completely different things, especially in space.

@50gens

Not by going directly towards it.[5] Not being sapient doesn’t mean you can’t calculate how to migrate where you want to migrate.

Again, you can calculate all you want, if you are physically uncapable of doing orbital manuevers it’s useless.

@50gens

By accelerating at the first half of the journey, and decelerating at the second half of the journey.

Again, you don’t understand what I write, they are uncapable of decelerating.

They aren’t capable of decelerating using solar sails because they only propel you toward the direction the photons are going.

They aren’t capable of decelerating using chemical engines because they are too inneficent to do so.

@50gens

So, getting larger with every generation?

No, that means they won’t be able to do any significant change in velocity, which means no reproduction because they die.

@50gens

That would add an element of risk. Do you want to use all of your fuel to get to an asteroid first, or be conservative and only use half of it so you have enough to get back

You don’t even understand how acceleration works, it doesn’t matter if you accelerate slowly or fast, you will always use the same amount of fuel.

[willow (they/her or yours are was/were)]

it could just work like a bioship and have some organs instead of a cockpit: eating anything with the necessary elements to make methane along with any reactive element, pressurizing it in a bladder like organ till it is a liquid, and shitting it out while igniting it

[fralegend015 (Shroudmaster)]

That’s also called a chemical engine.

[willow (they/her or yours are was/were)]

yes but it doesn’t need to store any more fuel than it takes to get to it’s next target thus eliminating the main problem of a chemical engine

[50gens]

^[1]

@fralegend015

Ignoring transfer windows

I didn’t ignore transfer windows. You don’t have to use transfer windows if you don’t want to be there as soon as an earthling spacecraft.

@fralegend015

too slowly to do orbital manuever

What is this orbital manuver that you talk about that doesn’t allow you to slowly build potential energy?^[2]

@fralegend015

there is the problem that a solar sail only propels you away from star that is producing the photons

That is true, earth sails can go towards the wing but there is no “ocean” in space so they can only move away from the sun (and to the sides). But they can instead use the gravity of a planet away from the sun to move towards the interior of a solar system and^[3] using the atmosphere of a planet that is close to the sun to slow down.

@fralegend015

it doesn’t matter if you accelerate slowly or fast, you will always use the same amount of fuel.

Or, your mass is 99.999% fuel and you can move at the speed you throw the fuel. You need a minimum speed to exit earth, but in space there is no drag, which allows staying at the same distance away from the star.

Someone should make a calculation of what it takes to move between two planets, or if gravity assist gives free energy to go wherever you want (provided you can go to another planet once)

@fralegend015

They aren’t capable of decelerating using chemical engines because they are too inneficent to do so.

I want you to say what you mean by inneficent

@fralegend015

it is so impratical and inneficent that they would be unable to use the transition stages

in transition stages (in the planet) it would be used to increase speed during flight, going to space at first try isn’t necessary

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1. i misclicked and commented while i was writing it ↩︎

2. you could even do that in earth if earth was a ball of dark matter, going down and up again and accelerating at the right direction slowly like using a swing ↩︎

3. edit2 ↩︎

[willow (they/her or yours are was/were)]

you do make a few good points but this

@50gens

You don’t have to use transfer windows if you don’t want to be there as soon as an earthling spacecraft.

is just completely incorrect even if you are moving as fast as an earth shuttle you have to account for the necessary trajectory whether or not it is worth it to go there

@fralegend015

it doesn’t matter if you accelerate slowly or fast, you will always use the same amount of fuel.

that is correct but if you replenish your fuel reserves it doesn’t matter because you are making fuel to replace your lost fuel

[50gens]

I often get confused. We should clarify if we are talking about moving 1)from planets surface to orbit 2)from an asteroid to another asteroid in the same belt or ring or 3)moving between two planets or between a planet and an asteroid belt

[willow (they/her or yours are was/were)]

i’m talking about in an asteroid belt and occasionally dipping into the atmosphere of a gas giant

[50gens]

@willow

occasionally dipping into the atmosphere of a gas giant

that would’t help moving between asteroids though^[1]

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1. it can be used if you are approaching the gas giant with a high speed ↩︎

[willow (they/her or yours are was/were)]

i meant to get fuel when there are no asteroids of the right composition

[fralegend015 (Shroudmaster)]

@50gens

I didn’t ignore transfer windows. You don’t have to use transfer windows if you don’t want to be there as soon as an earthling spacecraft.

Your creature would die before they reach anything then, and no, hybernation is not a magical solution to remaining in outer space for severeal centuries.

@50gens

What is this orbital manuver that you talk about that doesn’t allow you to slowly build potential energy?[2]

Pretty much every orbital manuever requires you to be able to precisely change your velocity in specific points of the orbit.

@50gens

That is true, earth sails can go towards the wing but there is no “ocean” in space so they can only move away from the sun (and to the sides). But they can instead use the gravity of a planet away from the sun to move towards the interior of a solar system and[3] using the atmosphere of a planet that is close to the sun to slow down.

They can’t, you still need to be able to accurately change your velocity in order to do gravity assists, plus gravity assists become impossible if your velocity is too high.

Aereobraking would be catastrophic for your creature and in no way would anyone evolve to do them, they require you to be able to make precise orbital manuevers, or else they will end up too much inside of the atmosphere and crash into the planet, or they will end not being capable of increasing their periapsis above the planet atmosphere once they are done. And aerobraking manuevers also require you to be able to whistand high temperatures.

@50gens

Or, your mass is 99.999% fuel and you can move at the speed you throw the fuel. You need a minimum speed to exit earth, but in space there is no drag, which allows staying at the same distance away from the star.

Irrelevant, you can’t “save fuel” the way you were originally saying.

Also, for it be 99.99% fuel, it would either need to not have any structure (which would mean it isn’t alive), or it would need to have a massive amount of mass, which:

1. requires much more thrust to accelerate.

2. assumes the creature is capable of reproducing and increasing in size when it doesn’t have that amount of mass, which it isn’t.

@50gens

I want you to say what you mean by inneficent

Chemical rockets require not only their fuel, but also their own oxydiser and of a third gas which is used to maintain pressure of the tank, all of which drastically increases mass which in turn decreases the amount of change in velocity they can do.

@50gens

in transition stages (in the planet) it would be used to increase speed during flight, going to space at first try isn’t necessary

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1. i misclicked and commented while i was writing it ︎
2. you could even do that in earth if earth was a ball of dark matter, going down and up again and accelerating at the right direction slowly like using a swing ︎
3. edit2 ︎

They would be much more inneficent in a planet than in space.

@50gens

ou just need a lung or a vocal sac or any other sac and use it like a baloon turned upside down and released. It should work in low gravity.(or maybe even in a high gravity planet, if it uses hydrogen balloons and discovers combusting that hidrogen, and then discovers that if you go sideways at a high altitude you don’t have to land and don’t have to maintain a large balloon)

Also, I just noticed, but it is also impossible for them to evolve a chemical engine this way.

Just combusting the fuel is not enough or else you just create heat, you also need a nozzle which converts the heat into velocity of the gas. But even that would generate virtually no thrust, you need to increase the pressure of the gas, but if you increase the pressure of the nozzle you also need to increase the pressure of the thing you are using to hold the fuel or else the gas will flow backwards and make it explode.

But even if you do that the engine will still explode because the combustion chamber overheats, which then requires you to modify if to be able to cool down.

But even if you are able to do that, it would produce low thrust. Which means you need to create a turbo which increases the pressure of the gas, but that is even more complex and also creates an exhaust gas which is not used in propulsion, not only that, but it would also greatly increase the chance of engine just exploding.

Plus, using an engine in an atmosphere and using an engine in vacuum is very different, to combust in vacuum you need to bring your own oxydiser, which means your creature needs to have a way of producing oxydiser and storing it.

But even then, different engines perform differently at certain altitudes, there are engines more efficent at sea level and engines more efficent in vacuum.

Such a system would be too complex and give too little benefit to actually evolve.

[50gens]

@fralegend015

hybernation is not a magical solution to remaining in outer space for severeal centuries.

except it is

@fralegend015

Pretty much every orbital manuever requires you to be able to precisely change your velocity in specific points of the orbit.

Faster than what is achivable by rockets and solar sails? Isn’t this

@fralegend015

increasing their periapsis above the planet atmosphere

the only instance where a high acceleration needs to be achieved^[1]? What is stopping an object from doing a hundred small gravity assist manouvers instead of one?

@fralegend015

assumes the creature is capable of reproducing and increasing in size when it doesn’t have that amount of mass, which it isn’t.

The only living part reproducing, the kids being dependant on the parent for a long time before they can build and fill fuel containers. Or being eusocial, the queen being the rocket and ants going out to mine asteroids while having smaller thrust capabilities.

@fralegend015

Just combusting the fuel is not enough or else you just create heat, you also need a nozzle which converts the heat into velocity of the gas. But even that would generate virtually no thrust, you need to increase the pressure of the gas, but if you increase the pressure of the nozzle

Wouldn’t the pressure get lower in the nozzle if the speed of fluid increases(Bernoulli)?

@fralegend015

different engines perform differently at certain altitudes, there are engines more efficent at sea level and engines more efficent in vacuum

@fralegend015

you also need to increase the pressure of the thing you are using to hold the fuel or else the gas will flow backwards and make it explode.

Thankfully, unlike the shape-memory alloys in technology, shape shifting parts is the norm with living creatures. Contract a lung that has an oxident and contract the lung that has a reactant.

@fralegend015

aerobraking manuevers also require you to be able to whistand high temperatures.

@fralegend015

But even if you do that the engine will still explode because the combustion chamber overheats, which then requires you to modify if to be able to cool down.

Large water reserves around the part where the reaction takes place would absorb the heat, and the water would turn into gas which could be thrown out of the body^[2] if that much heat is generated.

@fralegend015

to combust in vacuum you need to bring your own oxydiser, which means your creature needs to have a way of producing oxydiser and storing it.

Water is a great fuel, because it is common. Split it into hydrogen and oxygen with the energy coming from photosynthesis, do the opposite for respiration^[3] but it is best to keep them seperated because they double as a propellant.

Storing oxygen would first evolve when the creature flies(rocket powered) too high in the atmosphere.

@fralegend015

and of a third gas which is used to maintain pressure of the tank

This sounds like a bad design rather then a necessity

@fralegend015

But even if you are able to do that, it would produce low thrust. Which means you need to create a turbo which increases the pressure of the gas, but that is even more complex and also creates an exhaust gas which is not used in propulsion, not only that, but it would also greatly increase the chance of engine just exploding.

Does the turbo exist just to increase the pressure? Because a lung shrinked with muscles can also increase the pressure of the gas in it.

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1. and even then, the very thin atmosphere at high altitudes can be used ↩︎

2. a small amount of propulsion ↩︎

3. use the energy to turn the carbondioxide into glucose ↩︎

[Deathwake (i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)]

Hey guys, did you know you can ignore launch windows? It’s wildly inefficient, very silly, and doesn’t matter if the only organ that it doing anything whatsoever is an extremely simple set of backup eyes working as proximity sensors. In that case you aren’t using up anything but water, you’re slowly turning water reserves into starch or oil reserves. You just gotta be past the frost line so there’s ice to refuel on, and you can go wherever you want, just taking years and years to go anywhere. If you’re wondering how you break, first: aerobreaking , just slide of atmospheres to get into orbit. To escape back to solar orbit when you’re done eating all the ice you could want in a gas giant’s rings just use your solar sail whenever you’re on the far side of the gas giant until you either extend your orbit past where it can be and escape or until you can light up your more powerful engines for like 10 seconds at periapsis to escape with much more precision. If you want to go closer to the sun just gravity sling to turn around.

Edit:
Lmao imagine forgetting about monopropelants

If you’re wondering about how to get hydrogen peroxide:
It is also produced by exposing water to ultraviolet rays from a mercury lamp, or an electric arc while confining it in a UV transparent vessel (e.g. quartz)
That’s from Wikipedia. Reminder about how much we’ve been trying to avoid UV. This stuffd be a waste product of living in space the critter would want to get rid of.

How to get silver: metallic asteroids! They’d look like comets if they were shiny enough, maybe evolve to get eaten, heavy metals and peroxides would end up in the same waste system, and boil off forcing their bodies to eject them out of a far less effective waste ejector drive until they ran out of one, but they’d evolve to have a use for the reaction, probably splitting the waste storage organs into heavy and light compounds, making a bipropellant system, unt they figured out silver was a catalyst and not part of the reaction, growing silver deposits on hardened exhaust pipes for just the peroxide.

[50gens]

i know right? its great!

[fralegend015 (Shroudmaster)]

I’m just going to assume you are trolling, for there is no way you could say something so dumb (a lot of which I already explained why wouldnt work)

The same goes for @50gens

[50gens]

calls me a troll because space whales

@fralegend015

(they would just die)

[Deus (The Alpha and the Omega)]

Again, the main point half of everyone seems to continuously neglect: evolution has no plan, foresight, or awareness.

Even if you somehow could hypothetically create the perfect complex creature for space travel (which hasn’t been done yet since we are ignoring the many factors that just outright invalidate the majority of proposals) it doesn’t mean evolution will create such a creature. Every evolutionary step has to make immediate sense and has to have an immediate benefit; that’s why you don’t see organic solar sails, hyper flexible chitinous armor resilient enough to withstand space, the ability to somehow hibernate for centuries, etc. in real life.

If it’s as “easy” as some are making it seem to be, it would already have evolved. The fact it hasn’t is plenty telling enough.

[50gens]

Earth isn’t an enceladus that is close to the sun, and i made suggestions for adapting to space step by step, and i think it makes sense(definately if they try to go to space, maybe by a random species)