# Underwater Civilizations Take 3 **URL:** \ **Category:** Future Game\ **Created:** [January 10, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409 "2019-01-10T17:50:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![fralegend015](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/fralegend015/32/11835_2.png) [@fralegend015](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/fralegend015)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 2:46pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/955 "2022-05-16T14:46:28Z")
@GodOfKnowledge That is not the point, that was an analogy. Also people are scared of the radioactive element, not of the way a nuclear reactor works (most of them don’t even know how it works). > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Yep, that’s how all sapient beings think, which is why no-one has ever studied insect stings Strange how humans gained fire mastery if ALL sapients think like that. Also, if that’s true then underwater sapients would never use it either, you didn’t think about this much, did you? > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Animals aren’t afraid of things that they don’t encounter or know about You don’t know the uses and utility of something you don’t encounter or know about either, yet you are telling me these underwater civs would know of fire and of it’s uses. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Until they get to land, at least So… Until they become a terrestrial civ? > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Where is the non sequitur? There is a quote above that phrase. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Humans are not the only species in the universe Not only is that meaningless, because if we did it that means others can do that, but fire hawks do that too. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > The social environment of medieval times wasn’t conducive to massive factories, regardless of their tech 1. Prove it 2. Prove that without the social environment they could develop massive factries. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Trying to make a small fire, while taking precautions and wearing a waterproof suit made with wax or something similarly easy to melt 1. You havent proved that the waterproof spacesuits (because in function they are the same) are possible. 2. Why would they take precautions when they never interacted with fire before? 3. How would they try to make a small fire? Do you really think humans always knew how to start fires? They started out by taking fire from a fire started by natural means and then at one point in human history someone discovered how to start it yourself, now humans were CAPABLE of discovering how to do it themselves because they live on land, where there is no water to stop fire. Your underwater civ would have to create suits (extremely expensive), send people with the suits on land (in which each travel to land would be very short because of the physical limitations of the suits and oxygen), find fire (which is something not that hard if you are terrestrial, extremely hard if you are aquatic, unless you are telling me they send people on frail and expensive suits during storms), then find out a way to make fire on their own (which would be extremely hard, since their travels to land would be short and expensive). 4. if they use easy to melt materials, then you can say goodbye to it when near fire, even a small piece not waterproofed can be fatal. Which would lead them to avoid fire (if they ever encounter it) as to not ruin their expensive suits and die. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Then what is the point for all the arguments about fire, if the intention is not to force it on sapient species? Not only does your argument base on fire too (lol), since you are talking about how they would experiment with fire and how they would not be scared of it, but you also don’t have any proof for meaningfull technological advance without fire. (also, you are supposing that fire use is an arbitrary human trait.) ---
**Author:** ![Deathwake](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/deathwake/32/12307_2.png) [@Deathwake](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/Deathwake)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 4:10pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/956 "2022-05-16T16:10:56Z")
> [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > I don’t see your point here People can fear things without having an inborn instinct. In fact, when you were a child did you parents/guardians warn you not to touch stovetops or flames? If so, why? Weren’t you instinctually afraid of anything that looked like fire or radiated heat? Have you ever held a match? Wouldn’t you panic upon seeing the fire creep down the matchstick? Why can humans hold a fire in their hands or touch a flame as a child? I want sources on land animals fearing fires instinctually. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > The social environment of medieval times wasn’t conducive to massive factories, regardless of their tech Correct for most of that period. What about the early modern period and later high middle ages? The merchant republics of Genoa and Venice or Novgorod or England could have easily had factories. In fact Venice _did_ invent assembly lines in this period! (For ship manufacturing, the [Venetian Arsenal](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Arsenal#:~:text=One%20revolutionary%20aspect%20of%20the,going%20to%20the%20galley%20itself.)) But they used human labor for all of it, when I’m sure some steps would have been _great_ to automate! Why didn’t they? > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > taking precautions Why. Why? Who told the terranauts (what I’m calling your hypothetical land suit wearers) to take precautions? In fact, how did they know to make fire in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![BurgeonBlas](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@BurgeonBlas](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/BurgeonBlas)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 10:07pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/957 "2022-05-16T22:07:11Z")
> [@fralegend015](#): > > You don’t know the uses and utility of something you don’t encounter or know about either, yet you are telling me these underwater civs would know of fire and of it’s uses It is possible to learn about something’s uses after discovering it > [@fralegend015](#): > > So… Until they become a terrestrial civ? An underwater civ that visits land is no more a terrestrial civ than human civs with submarines are underwater civs > [@fralegend015](#): > > There is a quote above that phrase And it doesn’t contain a non sequitur > [@fralegend015](#): > > If we did it that means others can do that Horses managed to evolve solid hooves, yet this doesn’t somehow imply that all similar animals will end up evolving solid hooves. The same principle applies here > [@fralegend015](#): > > Prove it There was a lot less of the resources or people available in medieval times. This makes a great factory near impossible > [@fralegend015](#): > > Prove that without the social environment they could develop massive factories Depending on how things work out, it’s entirely possible that fire-less engines could be just as good as fired engines. While fuel efficiency is lower, there is also a point about what said fuel is: Turbines, for example, need no fuel but the motion of their medium, and animal engines could easily be fueled almost for free, by using animals that can subsist on unusable meat and vegetable matter, or a well-stationed filter-feeder underwater > [@fralegend015](#): > > You haven’t proved that the waterproof spacesuits (because in function they are the same) are possible What do you want me to prove? That wax can waterproof things? That friction causes heat? > [@fralegend015](#): > > Why would they take precautions when they never interacted with fire before? Perhaps they take heed from amphibious domestic animals, or perhaps they’ve already made theories regarding rapid oxidation reactions. There’s also the point that fire basically looks like a piece of the sun that’s fallen to Earth, which could put someone on edge > [@fralegend015](#): > > How would they try to make a small fire? They try and heat up some dry fluff to see what happens, and it catches fire. Now they know that heating up something like that results in fire > [@fralegend015](#): > > If they use easy to melt materials, then you can say goodbye to it when near fire So I guess they’d have to use tongs. I don’t see how that is such an issue > [@fralegend015](#): > > Not only does your argument base on fire too There’s a difference between evolving for fire and discovering it later > [@fralegend015](#): > > you don’t have any proof for meaningful technological advance without fire If you go back in this thread, you’ll find a few posts in which fire-less civilizations (specifically underwater) are discussed > [@Deathwake](#): > > People can fear things without having an inborn instinct. In fact, when you were a child did you parents/guardians warn you not to touch stovetops or flames? If so, why? Weren’t you instinctually afraid of anything that looked like fire or radiated heat? Have you ever held a match? Wouldn’t you panic upon seeing the fire creep down the matchstick? Why can humans hold a fire in their hands or touch a flame as a child? 1. Humans are adapted for fire. It’s not hard to imagine that this extends to the mind 2. No matter where the fear of fire originates, it’s going to be a pretty strong fear in cultures > [@Deathwake](#): > > They used human labor for all of it, when I’m sure some steps would have been _great_ to automate! Why didn’t they? Which features do you think they might have automated and why? > [@Deathwake](#): > > Who told the terranauts to take precautions? The first terranaut to have the idea that ‘maybe this suit-destroying mini-sun could be a little dangerous’ ---
**Author:** ![GodOfKnowledge](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/godofknowledge/32/10542_2.png) [@GodOfKnowledge](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/GodOfKnowledge)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 10:28pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/958 "2022-05-16T22:28:45Z")
also, wouldn’t the suit break with large amounts of like friction, or catch on fire, i mean, you are surrounded by water, but it will leak, since sap is flammable, unless you used wa, which would melt, so it is ---
**Author:** ![Deathwake](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/deathwake/32/12307_2.png) [@Deathwake](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/Deathwake)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 12:29am UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/959 "2022-05-17T00:29:09Z")
> [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > And it doesn’t contain a non sequitur yes it does. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Horses managed to evolve solid hooves, yet this doesn’t somehow imply that all similar animals will end up evolving solid hooves. The same principle applies here > [@fralegend015](#): > > can it was can not will end up. also false equivalency. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > There was a lot less of the resources or people available in medieval times …i thought there were enough in the stone age according to you? are you saying there was more food per capita available to stone age villages than to medieval kingdoms? > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > What do you want me to prove? That wax can waterproof things? That friction causes heat? that wax can be used to waterproof things and that friction based heat is useful _while you are still underwater_. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Perhaps they take heed from amphibious domestic animals, or perhaps they’ve already made theories regarding rapid oxidation reactions. There’s also the point that fire basically looks like a piece of the sun that’s fallen to Earth, which could put someone on edge no terranaut has time to watch draft animals from what i know about their suit, advanced theories require no being in the stone age, and fire isnt that bright, and the heat isnt feelable through a landsuit. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > They try and heat up some dry fluff to see what happens why in tarnation would anyone do that? its pointless and im sure non-waterlogged wood or high protein land animal meat is taking up the time of the adventurers. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > evolving for fire you have yet to prove we humans have done that, or any other land animal. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > you’ll find a few posts in which fire-less civilizations (specifically underwater) are discussed which i opposed you on and ostensibly won. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Humans are adapted for fire. It’s not hard to imagine that this extends to the mind what do you mean? that you can just, i dunno, overcome minor insticts? because if thats true land civs have a massive advantage. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > No matter where the fear of fire originates, it’s going to be a pretty strong fear in cultures so, um, have you ever heard of camping? firefighters? smiths? welders? caution, sure, fear, nahh. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Which features do you think they might have automated and why? lathes would have been awesome for heavy metalworking. earlier handpowered lathes didnt do much for steelworking and steam hadnt been invented yet. (correction: wasnt avaliable, steam had been invented before but the venetians hadnt heard of it) workers at the arsenal invented armor piercing handguns and advanced cannon manufacturering, with lathes i cant imagine what they’d do. power hammers would also increase the size of metal parts that the arsenal could produce, and heavy weight based hammers were definitely known as early as the middle ages, and adding an engine and a pully would make sense to anyone involved. steam ships were basically the ultimate advantage and adopted _very_ quickly into hybrid systems and riverboats when steam power was commercialized. why have i never heard of an animal powered riverboat or great galley? tracked horse-drawn carriages, the precursors to trains, are proven to be more efficient that carts. i think carting around parts could easily have benefited from this or from even more efficient animals than horses. why has not a single one of these been done? never heard of any of them and i 🇧🇪 ing researched this for a good period of time. havent heard of any animal driven automations in a long time, and the few i have were failures. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > The first terranaut to have the idea that ‘maybe this suit-destroying mini-sun could be a little dangerous’ suits that would take whole economies to produce, suits, the terranauts might want to save. might want to stay away from that fire. its scary. dont want to asphyxiate or loose your ticket to the magical world rim. sounds awful dont you think? ---
**Author:** ![BurgeonBlas](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@BurgeonBlas](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/BurgeonBlas)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 7:01am UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/960 "2022-05-17T07:01:39Z")
> [@Deathwake](#): > > Yes it does Where? > [@Deathwake](#): > > It was can not will end up Then what is the relevance? Almosy any trait ‘can’ happen in a sapient species, yet we don’t randomly decide yo build the tech tree around them > [@Deathwake](#): > > I thought there were enough in the stone age according to you? ‘Medieval’ is a time and ‘stone age’ is a stage in metal chemistry. They aren’t comparable like that > [@Deathwake](#): > > that wax can be used to waterproof things and that friction based heat is useful _while you are still underwater_ Why do you expect that it wouldn’t work? underwater wax is still wax > [@Deathwake](#): > > No terranaut has time to watch draft animals from what i know about their suit, advanced theories require no being in the stone age, and fire isnt that bright, and the heat isnt feelable through a landsuit Why? > [@Deathwake](#): > > Why in tarnation would anyone do that? They’re doing science > [@Deathwake](#): > > You have yet to prove we humans have done that, or any other land animal How else could fire mastery come to be? What other conclusion fits the facts? > [@Deathwake](#): > > Which i opposed you on By denying the possibility of a nonhumanoid species completing the game at all. That seems like not much of a win > [@Deathwake](#): > > If thats true land civs have a massive advantage How? > [@Deathwake](#): > > have you ever heard of camping? firefighters? smiths? welders? Which nonhumans engage in these behaviours? > [@Deathwake](#): > > Suits that would take whole economies to produce Why? > [@Deathwake](#): > > Might want to stay away from that fire Or, they could just not grab it with their bare hands and contrive some tools for handling it ---
**Author:** ![Deathwake](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/deathwake/32/12307_2.png) [@Deathwake](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/Deathwake)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 8:35am UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/961 "2022-05-17T08:35:05Z")
> [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Where? its not my job to accommodate your reading comprehension level. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Then what is the relevance? you misunderstood, i clarified. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Almosy any trait ‘can’ happen in a sapient species, yet we don’t randomly decide yo build the tech tree around them tool use is required for anything at all, as is manipulator limbs, as is advanced communication. anyone arguing that doesnt seem to know what a tech tree is. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > ‘Medieval’ is a time and ‘stone age’ is a stage in metal chemistry. They aren’t comparable like that great, theyre both useless. i dont care about a human time period on one continent. its useless. but for real, you’ve yet to explain how stone age cultures can achieve such tech. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > underwater wax is still wax underwater wax cools off instantly and/or mixes into the water in small globs. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Why? why would they spend their time that way? > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > They’re doing science thats not how science works. you get a theory, you test it, you record your findings, and you either use the findings a basis for a change in belief, more research, or technology. what theory are they testing? why does anyone care about this theory? > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > How else could fire mastery come to be? oh i dunno- um, technology? how about you cite a source. i’d love to see one. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > By denying the possibility of a nonhumanoid species completing the game at all **hu·man·oid** /ˈ(h)yo͞oməˌnoid/ _adjective_ adjective: **humanoid** 1. having an appearance or character resembling that of a human. “a small, green, and hideously warty humanoid figure” _noun_ noun: **humanoid** ; plural noun: **humanoids** 1. (especially in science fiction) a being resembling a human in its shape. “a three-eyed humanoid” thought you might need a refresher., so yes, humanoid means shaped like a human. i have never stated anything about shape except that it needs a grasping appendage of some kind. could be an arm, or a leg, or a tongue, or a reproductive organ, or a tail, or a trunk, who cares at all. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > How? if fear can just be overcome then underwater civs have nothing but extra work. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Which nonhumans engage in these behaviours? kinda funny- um not wildfire fires dont seem to scare animals of any kind… [Does A Campfire Keep Animals and Bugs Away? – Decide Outside – Making Adventure Happen](https://decideoutside.com/does-a-campfire-keep-animals-and-bugs-away/) random blog idk i could get better sources if anyone wanted caution, sure, fire’s can hurt you, but you can just not touch it. thats not fear, thats caution. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Why? how do you produce them? > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Or, they could just not grab it with their bare hands and contrive some tools for handling it why would you handle it at all? like sure, cool, but why? i dont think you judge the psychology of your example critters often. ---
**Author:** ![BurgeonBlas](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@BurgeonBlas](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/BurgeonBlas)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 3:01pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/962 "2022-05-17T15:01:40Z")
> [@Deathwake](#): > > Tool use is required for anything at all, as is manipulator limbs, as is advanced communication What about flight? Or electroreception? Or chelae? All of these traits can happen, and they help sapient species. So by you reasoning, all of these features should be assumed > [@Deathwake](#): > > you’ve yet to explain how stone age cultures can achieve such tech They invent it, and then they’ve got it > [@Deathwake](#): > > Underwater wax cools off instantly How did you deduce this? Also, why can’t they just insulate the process with some blubber or something? > [@Deathwake](#): > > What theory are they testing? why does anyone care about this theory? They’re working out how dry things work so that they can figure out their universe > [@Deathwake](#): > > Technology? Prove to me that nests aren’t some sort of designed technology. Then see if your proof can apply to any other topics > [@Deathwake](#): > > Humanoid means shaped like a human It’s not that far of a jump from saying that aliens need human digestion to saying that other systems have to be human too > [@Deathwake](#): > > If fear can just be overcome then underwater civs have nothing but extra work Inborn fears being lost with other adaptations doesn’t imply that such inborn fears can suddenly be deleted in a society, for the same reason that horses don’t prove that any civilization can magically manifest hooves > [@Deathwake](#): > > Not wildfire fires dont seem to scare animals of any kind Where in nature do we find these campfires? > [@Deathwake](#): > > How do you produce them? Wax the fabric, sew it into a suit, wax the seams, and then assemble the frame and mechanisms. It’s not hard > [@Deathwake](#): > > Why would you handle it at all? Science ---
**Author:** ![PositiveTower](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/positivetower/32/8545_2.png) [@PositiveTower](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/PositiveTower)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 3:08pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/963 "2022-05-17T15:08:50Z")
> [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > They invent it, and then they’ve got it Very counterproductive. This same argument could be used to explain how spaceships could be made in the Victorian era ---
**Author:** ![titus\_the\_human](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/titus_the_human/32/8109_2.png) [@titus\_the\_human](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/titus_the_human)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 3:32pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/964 "2022-05-17T15:32:55Z")
But wait! What if they can use the hydrotermical vents to _smeltal the meltal_ ? ---
**Author:** ![GodOfKnowledge](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/godofknowledge/32/10542_2.png) [@GodOfKnowledge](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/GodOfKnowledge)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 3:51pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/965 "2022-05-17T15:51:28Z")
Ight new Idea, based on what has been previously discussed. Electric crabs, having the simple anatomy of a crab while adding 2 electrical current producing organs in the claws would allow for the detection of ores, the fighting of pray and the metalworking of ores, ALL underwater, if you want the calculations you can find the post a long way above this one, but in short, on earthlike conditions it is indeed possible for the 2-meter crab to start forging underwater, it would be a tedious process, but doable, also if anyone says that ALL crabs are both land and water, I will flip out on you, cuz you got the panther crab for example that is purely underwater. And those thinking of how the larger an electric eel is, the less the shock, you are true. But the anatomy of the crab says otherwise, by conserving the majority of the electrical receptors on the claw, they can detect ores in focused areas, mostly because they can sense the conductivity of the metal, like an eel or metal detector. The way to get the idea of metal will mostly occur over time, as weapons of stone and bone bread over time are a lot faster than nonoxidative metals like copper. ---
**Author:** ![TwilightWings21](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/twilightwings21/32/7288_2.png) [@TwilightWings21](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/TwilightWings21)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 3:57pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/966 "2022-05-17T15:57:55Z")
> [@GodOfKnowledge](#): > > Ight, imma start a new conversation about electric crabs. > > so how would they get to space? > Due to using electricity and purified iron, you could do electrolysis to get fuel, using an upside-down hollow container. > Mass producing this would be easy, using non conductive materials and or sealant like a form of clay, can be used as the base of the mass production machine, and having many rods with a metal sheet at the bottom would allow for electrolysis, and for hydrogen and oxygen to be made. After adding a shell around this and many pipes, you can make a lot of this fuel. > > you can use this fuel to burn things without the need to be on the surface, of course you would need a spark, but since they are electric crabs it would ignite easily, this could make it way easier to refine and mass produce different metals. So with this they should get to space with enough time. quoting the only thing I could find from knowledge about crabs for reference I don’t think I fully agree (how would electricity allow for ore detection?) But I’d have to read through more to truly try and debunk anything ---
**Author:** ![Evolution4Weak](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/evolution4weak/32/11005_2.png) [@Evolution4Weak](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/Evolution4Weak)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 4:00pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/967 "2022-05-17T16:00:01Z")
So i have been very lightly following this discussion and i feel like there might be an misunderstanding here? @BurgeonBlas seems to argue that an advance civ can come still come about even without fire while literally everyone else is saying that that doesn’t matter as without fire there is no metal and without metal there it basically becomes a dead-end and so not really worth pursuing * * * Basically underwater civ will have a alternate but valid tech tree that while will not be able to get to space can still achieve some pretty impressive stuff at least that what i think is happening and if so I don’t think is arguing against it as this thread is about how an underwater civ can beat the game and “ascend” and that fire is an impossible milestone that is needed for that ---
**Author:** ![fralegend015](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/fralegend015/32/11835_2.png) [@fralegend015](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/fralegend015)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 4:02pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/968 "2022-05-17T16:02:49Z")
> [@Evolution4Weak](#): > > @BurgeonBlas seems to argue that an advance civ can come still come about even without fire No, he is arguing that underwater civs would have an easier time developping fire mastery than terrestrial ones. ---
**Author:** ![TeaKing](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/teaking/32/14641_2.png) [@TeaKing](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/TeaKing)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 6:13pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/969 "2022-05-17T18:13:59Z")
you’re suggesting a creature that could become an advanced underwater civ… but remember that the player shouldnt be limited to a certain body plan or design. the whole discussion is still about thrive after all. ---
**Author:** ![Deathwake](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/deathwake/32/12307_2.png) [@Deathwake](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/Deathwake)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 6:46pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/970 "2022-05-17T18:46:55Z")
> [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > What about flight? Or electroreception? Or chelae? All of these traits can happen, and they help sapient species. So by you reasoning, all of these features should be assumed non of those are required, so i dont see your point. i meant you can litterally not have any tech without tool use, manipulators, and advanced communication. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > They invent it, and then they’ve got it elaborate. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > How did you deduce this? thermodynamics. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > why can’t they just insulate the process with some blubber or something? how to they process something when its behind layers of blubber? wouldnt friction damage the blubber? whats inside the blubber, a vacuum? magically dried wax completely filling it? > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > They’re working out how dry things work so that they can figure out their universe why do they think extreme heat will dry things? why do they think highly flammable materials are a good choice for this > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Prove to me that nests aren’t some sort of designed technology. Then see if your proof can apply to any other topics > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Prove to me that nests aren’t some sort of designed technology. Then see if your proof can apply to any other topics tech·nol·o·gy /tekˈnäləjē/ _noun_ 1. the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry. birds dont do science. yes im going to keep citing the dictionary. please cite your claims > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > It’s not that far of a jump from saying that aliens need human digestion to saying that other systems have to be human too yes it is. slippery slope fallacy. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Inborn fears being lost with other adaptations doesn’t imply that such inborn fears can suddenly be deleted in a society, for the same reason that horses don’t prove that any civilization can magically manifest hooves source. false equivalency. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Where in nature do we find these campfires? near humans. > [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > Wax the fabric, sew it into a suit, wax the seams, and then assemble the frame and mechanisms. It’s not hard how do they wax the suit? how do they find fabrics and threads strong enough to hold up all that water (water is heavy) how did they learn to make the frames and mechanisms? what do they make them out of? is it strong enough to hold up all that water? actually, i’ll distroy your entire argument using you logic. religion. why doesnt religion just crush science? (i actually think that’s a dumb idea but im still going to make Burgeon refute it) ---
**Author:** ![hhyyrylainen](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/hhyyrylainen/32/32_2.png) [@hhyyrylainen](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/hhyyrylainen)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 6:56pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/971 "2022-05-17T18:56:45Z")
I’m fine with that _if_ the same person also explains alternatives for _all_ of the technologies up to space stage (this is a ton of work why getting metal technology has been a key point) _or_ how they use their alternative technology to make land pressure suits and get back on track. ---
**Author:** ![BurgeonBlas](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/ee59a6/32.png) [@BurgeonBlas](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/BurgeonBlas)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 11:02pm UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/972 "2022-05-17T23:02:18Z")
> [@Deathwake](#): > > None of those are required Neither is fire, as a cursory look at nature would tell you > [@Deathwake](#): > > Elaborate Someone comes up with an idea, and tries to design it in reality. They iterate on the process until they get something that works as they intended > [@Deathwake](#): > > Thermodynamics Show your working > [@Deathwake](#): > > How to they process something when it’s behind layers of blubber? They could easily use some sort of mechanism to automate it > [@Deathwake](#): > > Wouldn’t friction damage the blubber? Only if it’s happening to the blubber > [@Deathwake](#): > > What’s inside the blubber? A concave shell filled with air, with the heaters on the inside and the wax and fabric pressed to the outside surface > [@Deathwake](#): > > Why do they think highly flammable materials are a good choice for this Because they don’t know what fire is at this point > [@Deathwake](#): > > Birds dont do science Including hawks? > [@Deathwake](#): > > False equivalency Where is the false equivalence? > [@Deathwake](#): > > Near humans Really? Do campfires magically sprout up around humans? Or would you be referring to unnatural fires that would never exist in the absence of fiery beasts? > [@Deathwake](#): > > How do they wax the suit? Heat it up with wax, as explained above > [@Deathwake](#): > > How do they find fabrics and threads strong enough to hold up all that water? Make the fabric thicker, and reinforce it with stuff > [@Deathwake](#): > > How did they learn to make the frames and mechanisms? By being inventive > [@Deathwake](#): > > What do they make them out of? Wood > [@Deathwake](#): > > Is it strong enough to hold up all that water? Probably > [@hhyyrylainen](#): > > I’m fine with that if the same person also explains how they use their alternative technology to make land pressure suits and get back on track I have already done so earlier in this thread ---
**Author:** ![Nigel](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/nigel/32/6997_2.png) [@Nigel](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/Nigel)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 12:57am UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/973 "2022-05-18T00:57:06Z")
everyone gangsta until their suits start to fall apart and or decompose ---
**Author:** ![GodOfKnowledge](https://thrivecommunity-cdn.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/godofknowledge/32/10542_2.png) [@GodOfKnowledge](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/u/GodOfKnowledge)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2022, 4:20am UTC](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409/974 "2022-05-18T04:20:43Z")
> [@BurgeonBlas](#): > > > [@Deathwake](#): > > > > How did they learn to make the frames and mechanisms? > > By being inventive -\_- your so funny, I forgot to laugh [Previous page](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409.md?page=47) [Next page](https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/underwater-civilizations-take-3/1409.md?page=49)