Deathwake
(i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)
1019
That’s the idea everyone’s been working with but we all try to find holes in it to get past that idea. That’s what this whole thread is. The only person who doesn’t accept that as a premise to be subverted or backed up is burgeon. Of course you think it’s just plain impossible, which I think most of us agree with until a cool and original idea comes into being that we subscribe to until people shoot it down.
Highly impossible. Breeding isn’t a magic wand, animals can’t do everything. Try getting to space on the back of an animal. It really doesn’t work. Even if an animal happened to evolve a non-oxygen reliant propulsion system that was powerful enough to lift it off the surface (a stupidly unlikely idea) the square-cube law prevents them from growing to any size, and the rocket equation jumps on the theoretical critter when it’s down, as does the need to breathe, eat, drink, and refuel. As does the need to use computers to calculate orbits, and telescopes to even know what space is, and microscopes (and electron microscopes) to understand genetics, while engines, metal gearboxes, metal wheels, advanced travel networks, radio communications, and firearms (complicated pile of asterisks involving total war, forced democratization, horse tribes, and martial incentives) are needed to undergo an industrial revolution. I don’t think biotech could be as good at mechanical tech at industrial or transport needs, and you don’t go to space with medical tech. Also the underwater civ in question wouldn’t have CRISPER or anything.
A little bit outdated because a few new ideas have been presented since then, like electric crabs and land suits, but still viable
(I actually have an idea I’m working on right now using aspects of burgeons land suits (more fully explained) and deathwakes floating forges, but I want to refine it a little before I let y’all tear it to shreds)
5 Likes
Deathwake
(i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)
1023
we should definitely make a list like that required reading. no posting until you read all of whats been disproven first.
6 Likes
Deathwake
(i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)
1024
Please forgive my double posting, slow mode prevents me from editing.
List with reasons attached, adapted from Twilight’s original list.
Heh big list
Low melting point metals for Hydrothermal Vents
actually possible but doesnt allow anything stronger than gold.
Forges built around vents and somehow forcing water out to increase temperature
Temperature caps out low.
Scaly foot Gastropoda analog domestication for ‘metallic’ scales
Can’t be bred into larger shapes, and leaves you with at best two to three small, low quality pieces of metal you can make.
Electric Eel domestication as generators
Voltage, amps, whatever metric uses for this, all off the measurements are utterly inconsequential when compared to the quantities needed to run an arc forge or welder.
Bioengineering in general
Doesn’t adequately replace many technologies including but not limited to: firearms, steamships, computers, rockets, aircraft, engines, industrial factories, and construction with metal.
Mechanical Computers/intermediate instruments until metalworking
does not allow for any real computing power or economies of scale and doesn’t explain how one would get metal.
simple compasses /similar generators
does not explain how one would acquire metal.
Current utilization w/ waterwheel to generate electricity
same issue as with electric eels
Chemicals that burn in contact with water, typically isolated in caves
most do not burn at sufficient temperature and those that do require metals
Anything that can burn in water/Greek fire
as above
Thermite, phosphorous, etc
as above
Amphibious people
not a true underwater civ
Amphibious Slaves
either its trading with a land civ but not nicely or magically training monkeys to smelt.
Crustacean society
either solves nothing or is amphibious.
Crustaceans utilizing mostly seamless (only seams adapted to release extra heat/allow limb movement) going by mid ocean ridges to avoid predators and eventually smelting
no sufficient temperatures exist to smelt with
Octopi in shallows to Squid in depths symbiosis, idea specifically also had them on a Europa like planet and thinking about space by firing extremophile microbes through geysers, making rockets via ceramic plating and limpet teeth analogs.
old theory contingent on having not only both terrestrial and ice mooner geography but also smelting aluminium ore underwater somehow. not realistic.
Water wires carry electricity when separated from other water
useless.
Pressure forges force out water
requires oxygen, fuel, and ignition from unknown sources. pressure may not be sufficient i dont know for certain.
Biomaterials: woody something, bones, etc.
Useless for going to space, computers, and random chance if a planet has anything even somewhat useful.
Material unique to a planet
explain, also same issues as above.
Fire breathing Sea dragon with a forge in lungs
utter fantasy, no reason one of these would evolve, and having a forge in one’s lungs tends to result in death,
Amphibious beast of burden Carries sophont a to surface in water filled stomach/pouch
possible, but how does one forge from inside a frogs mouth? also societies don’t domesticate massive animals so the creature would have to be unbred, wild, tamed (read: less trained) and societies don’t tend to tame large animals without preexisting wealth,
Bubble Forge
insufficient oxygen, how are bubbles made anyways, what fuel, why would a stone age civ waste time on this?
Floating surface forges/fire
no idea, seems a bit crazy for a stone age civ to figure out and fuel is an issue but never seen anything damming.
Sulfate dissolving to ‘forge’
i dont know this one.
Fire in water Vapor?
impossible
Black Smokers can and do melt metal and have organisms adapted to them
not really, like, lead maybe? dissolved aluminum maybe? nothing useful.
Thallium Reactors
how in hell? also what for? poisoning everyone?
O2 from swim bladders/lungs
fuel where? sufficient oxygen = nope
Underwater launching rockets
made from what metal?
Alternate Tech Trees
unexplained rambling. specify what you want and then we’ll shoot that down.
Plants/Cellulose can be harder and lighter than steel, can be done irl, problem is isolating pure, mesoscopic cellulose
how to isolate cellulose? also doesnt make computers, steam engines, or rockets very well.
Cold Forging/Shaping
shaping what metal? native gold or copper is possible but useless.
Organism that soaks up water (to allow for space to forge)
life isn’t minecraft, when you remove water more rushes in.
Fluorine vs. Oxygen Burning
doesnt work underwater to my knowledge but this is one im least sure of.
CO2 bubble filter on bubble forge
useless.
Uplifting
litterally waiting for divine intervention isnt a viable solution.
Symbiosis w/ surface species
100% possible but unlikely.
Cave amphibians/Cave lakes forging
Basically amphibians with extra steps/you’d run out of oxygen.
Forging using Cave air pockets
above + how do you forge? telekinisis?
Stone Age w/ advancement but no tech (ex. Native Americans/Incans, etc.)
totally possible but useless you can’t get past society stage.
Bacteria bonding accidentally to dropped stone tools near vent, same bacteria creates Iron covered tools, similar to Scaly Foot Gastropoda irl
super cool idea, wildly unlikely, would make incredibly low quality iron, and wouldnt be scalable.
land suits
production unexplained, economies of scale needed, and land suits would most likely be mechanically impossible without metal.
Oh man here we go again… native gold,copper, iron or nickel are usefull for constructing underwater forges with connection to the air above, and smelt other types of metals.
People cold forged native copper for example before hot forging was invented, into many different shapes. I dont see your point at all… as always…anyway , I pm-ed you cause of the 8 hour downtime between posts.
But could they cold forge the mwtals into the necessary shapes to make this furnace? You need to read and understand what other people write, because I never said is impossible to cold forge.
Shoouldve realised youre nitpicking, if we assume that they could cold forge, we also assume they could make anything needed to construct that forge unless you want to be unreasonable and assume that they cant make anything we didnt make with primitive cold forging even if its theoretically possible (Like for example metal sheets of simple geometric forms)…If youre going down that path of argumentation we could also say that with the same logic:
-romans for example could never do a steam engine even if they did a steam powered toy
-humans couldnt box before boxing was invented
-humans couldnt build wheels before 4000BC
-humans couldnt make wine before 6000BC
And the list can go on ad infinitum.
Does this seem like a reasonable argument to you?
Deathwake
(i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)
1034
Cold forging doesn’t rely on forges. You simply need two, heavy, tough dies and the muscle power to press them together, and some metal to put in them. Granite is honestly hard enough to do the trick for gold or copper. The parts are accounted for. Ironically enough people whose whole argument is attacking assumptions don’t expect us to do the same to them and have no responses when theirs are attacked.
So you are saying that there is no difference between the things you can make with cold “forging” and normal forging? You do realize that is a new claim you need to show evidence for, right?
That is only if cold forging can actually be used to make the parts needed, which you showed no proof of, now that I think about it, you never actually explained how this forge would actually work.
This seems like a strawman to me, you are misinterpreting my argument.
And where is this nitpicking? There literally is nothing to nitpick at.
I indeed agree, have you noticed the 8 hour slowdown?
This is literally the biggest problem with people suggesting impossible approaches to underwater civs.
I don’t get how people don’t realize that just because approach y works in some context it won’t automatically work underwater to solve problem x without them showing that it does.
No. Ive enumerated things that are hypothetically possible but which have no proof just like underwater civs using pressure forging to make simple metal sheets/slabs for building.
coping out with this “where da proof at” response is not even an argument.
Im pretty sure that you can still crush metal underwater (crush some things with harder things)and the laws of physics dont change as a underwater civ. Unless poor Pascal was wrong with his formulas.
Sorry for not following the slow mode… but you failed to understand the second part, you need to show that the approach can actually do what you want. So you next must show that while underwater cold forging can be used to make a real forge or cold forging can be used to do all of the forging required for technologies.
@Kemikal you are falling in the same shenaningans of BurgeonBlas, even if we were to accept the assumption (because it is just an assumption, you have showed no proof of it; I’m sorry if this hurts you, but if I were to follow your logic then I could claim that the impossible is possible and when they ask me for proof just say “haha, cope”) that it is possible to make these shapes, you have to explain how the forge works.
No, you have not. You tried to use “my logic” (not my logic) to prove me wrong, which you didn’t. Also, even assuming that wasn’t a strawman (which it is) you still would not have proven me wrong.
My argument is 3 questions, 3 questions which you are avoiding @Kemikal, answer it and you will have proven me wrong. And if you have no means of answering it… Then dont be avoidant.
The questions are: “How does this hypotetical underwater forge work?”, “what are the shapes needed to make this forge work?” and “Is it possible to use cold shaping to make these shapes or are they too complex?”