Ancestors that stick around

Scenarios where the lack of rival ancestors hurt gameplay enjoyment and immersion:

Loss of food source

A common occurrence when I evolve large motile predators, is that if I accidentally make them larger than the ecosystem can support, they are extremely successful as predators when young, but incapable of finding food whilst adult because they’re too slow. Whilst it’s fair that I should go extinct if I was operating as a lone example of my organism, it can become extremely aggravating if the young of this species is thriving at first and numbers in the dozens on screen at any one time.

Having ancestors that stick around would solve this issue because the slightly smaller consumable predators from the previous turn can act as a food source for the larger adult population of my new species, allowing for a transition into apex predation by eating the young of that species. In evolution, if a predator becomes unable to consumer the smaller producer organisms of their environment for what ever reason, but still is surrounded by lots of biomass in the form of smaller examples of itself, the predator will shift into a diet of it’s ancestor, which will in turn evolve to become a smaller generalist. For a real life example, fish species that become too large to eat smaller organism will instead turn to their recent ancestors, and get larger and bulkier to consume those instead as a main food source.

The lack of any way to consume larger predatory organisms that become common by eating smaller faster organisms, means that thrive possesses no wat to make a transition in food source when the previous food source becomes scarce or unattainable by happenstance. I cannot tell you how aggravating it is to have no source of food as a large adult predator, but constantly bump up agaisnt smaller, engulfable examples of your own species that have proliferated the environment.

No adaptive radiation

One weird thing about thrive in it’s current form is that evolution seems to be sporadic, random, and almost as if creatures emerge from nothing all of a sudden. This is because autoevo seems to spawn new species into the simulation wholesale, without much relation to species that already exist in the game world - For example a few times, on the second turn I will see enormous cells spawn in comparison to my own starter species, or in an environment comprised mostly of small photosynthesizes, a massive predatory organism with toxins might arrive that has no relation to the existing organisms.

Maybe this is an aspect of autoevo pulling from other hexes, or maybe a deceptive use of cytoplasm that makes it loo larger than it should. But either way, it leads to an experience that is perceived as being random, not continuous, unrelated to progressive diversification, and it especially feels unrelated to your own organism’s evolution with creatures instantly shapeshifting into forms that seem alien and unrelated. This is especially bad in relation to the circumstance that this section is about, specifically adaptive radiation in the scenario that a patch-based local extinction event occurs, or when you first join the game and other species are supposed to radiate out from your own.

In the context of starting the game, adding ancestors that remain in the game world as rival species will increase how much it seems like you are competing for the first stable niches, and increase how fun it is to race towards the available cloud-like resources. In the early game it can be quite easy and boring to evolve your creature into the first few iterations because there is no competition for resources. This is especially obvious when replaying the game, and that part of the experience might as well be removed in terms of actual gameplay because there is no skill involved.

In the context of responding to extinction events on the other hand, it can seem weird for species to vanish, but then fully formed species to move into the patch and take their place with no context for where came from or how they evolved. In the gameplay which is where such info matters, evolution can seem random and that makes it feel unfair if you are outcompeted by these seemingly random new species and go extinct. By allowing ancestors to stay around and slowly fill niches by adapting over time, it reduces the amount of out of context invaders that can arrive to instantly fill extinct niches, and also allows players to see the progress of radiation and how these species adapt and change to suit their environment.

The final context in which ancestor survival helps adaptive radiation seem more visible, is if the environment changes around you in such a way that there are multiple niches that your species can fill, for example either a stronger predator, smaller herbivore, a generalist, etc, and any of those choices would be correct in the context of evolution. The saying “evolution abhors a vacant niche” is important here because realistically, there should be a massive adaptive radiation of your own organism into various similar niches based on what is vacant in the environment. Currently in the game, the environment has this weird situation where the player lineage only fills a single niche, and any AI species adapted from it become either massively different to the point they aren’t identifiable as from the same lineage, or go extinct.

By having ancestors stick around and compete for your current niche, you will see various descendants of the two competing species enter their own niches later on, by diverging more realistically. You will be able to watch as species derived from you slowly change to fill environmental niches, and then eventually after many turns, they are their own distinct lineage with their own relatives and offshoots, and you can see visibly how an example of what you made slowly changed to fit into the ecosystem alongside you, in a different way.

Final thoughts:

So far, the only major reasoning to disable ancestor survival is that the players ended up swamped by their own species in their environment, which reduced ecological diversity. However, Nie’s idea to make ancestor retention tied to species name changes gives control of this mechanic to the player, and allows them to strategically deploy ancestor retention only when it would be beneficial to the gameplay experience. It effectively lets players choose their preferred playstyle whilst designing the species; Those that prefer an experience more similar to thrives current state would change their name less often, whereas those who wish to see a world more filled with offshoots of themselves will change their name more often. Or maybe the feature could be turned off entirely if a menu option is clicked?

Overall, i think that this feature is a vital component of evolution that becomes more conspicuous in it’s absence the longer it remains out of the game. A vast majority of IRL speciation occurs through competition with ancestor organisms, or related descendants of ancestors. Imagine how the world would have turned out if stingrays never competed with sharks, or octopus never competed with squid, humans never competed with neanderthals, or lizards never competed with snakes, etc. In fact, i’d wager that this is such a large aspect of the conventional evolution process that if it’s not implemented into thrive early on, multicellular and macroscopic sections of the game will end up being way less realistic than they should be, and the long term gameplay experience will suffer.

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Migration from other patches exists, so it’s possible that That’s a species that just migrated.

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That is true, and I acknowledged it in the post, but the point is that early on the speed at which creatures get large and different from you can make it seem like they are changing too quickly even though it’s technically realistic evolution. Having ancestors stick around helps reduce how sudden and early these evolution and migration events feel. It adds coherency to the ecosystem by ensuring there is always something familiar present, rather than every turn everything changing into a completely different size, shape and colour. it makes the evolution feel more continuous.

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I want to add on that one thing 0.5.9 did that made the start seem more natural was having other species exist along side you when the game begins. This really helps the autoevo system feel like these cells diverged instead of coming into existence all of the sudden.

But you play as LUCA, if we simulate other species, then we should be sure that they all go extinct, it is pretty hard using auto-evo system

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But other species don’t exist at the start? All other cells you might encounter are members of your own species. When you get to the editor the first time that’s when other species can appear.

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I never got a screenshot, but I ran into a purple cell before the first editor. I don’t entirely remember if I tweaked the mutation rate, so maybe that has something to do with it.

It should not be possible at all, no other species are added to the world before you get to the editor, unless you are playing in freebuild where the world is prepopulated.

that’s weird, I’ll keep an eye out in case I run into it again. Where should I send it if I find it?

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If you see it happen, make a save and upload that save somewhere I can download it from.

When I reach coastal and evolve the first Thylakoid there, my species in istant volcanic vent also do it. It is really strange.
Evolutionary diffusion should be subject to some suppression, which can depend on the degree of variation difference(gaining the new kinds of cellular structure should diffuse harder than adding or modifying existing cellular structure), different patches’s environmental similarity and distance between different patches. Perhaps plasmid should be able to improve the ability of evolutionary diffusion.
When my species gain the new kinds of cellular structure, the species that I used to be in the same patch shouldn’t vanishes completely, expecially when I gain first aggressiveness structure.

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The player species is exempt from having it split into two due to differing selection pressures in different patches. Players already complain about auto-evo wanting to kill them off, I can’t imagine how many complaints I would need to read if players could lose 80% of their population (with it splitting off) by placing one new organelle.

It is a real question. Many players pursue the thriving of species numbers. The quantity of significant losses is unacceptable for them. It may be related to the current victory conditions.
For the entire evolutionary history, many species flourished for a while, but some of they also overdraw evolutionary potential and eliminated by the changing environment.
I imagine a specie gain first aggressiveness structure, it begins to prey on the former compatriots and differentiate into new specie. But in fact my specie all turn into new specie, it don’t have any attackable objects, because there’s only itself here.

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Please do not double post, it is against the rules. Edit your previous post instead.

what about if there was an organelle that allowed you to keep that population in your species by transferring genes between populations

What would that solve? That’s exactly how the game functions currently; no matter what the player does their entire species mutates like the player edited.

they could gain back population from a patch by just moving to it as long as it has a recent relative to their current species in it
another possibility could be that you only speciate when renaming your species

I definitely think that tying success to current species population amount is a bad move. That kind of mindset only incentivizes the creation of things such as worms and nematodes. Instead success should be based on survival through time as the environment changes, emphasizing adaptability and resourcefulness.

The reason i point this out is that, as Lan describes, all of your species changing at once is such an unrealistic and strange event that it feels like a slap in the face.

It also perpetuates the myth that all organisms in a species are inherently united to some goal of success, which is instead the opposite of what actually occurs, as many species have evolved from speciation from direct competition and hunting.

i think that rather than listening to some minority or even majority of players that feel upset if improving their species resets their population numbers, you should instead tie success to whether the player is still alive as the environment changes. Let those unhappy players make the choice between upgrading their species and maximizing species numbers.

Realistically, the only thing that would happen is they hold off on changing too much, and stay the same, and then their species is outcompeted by rivals that have decided to change and then rapidly reproduce. Those who decide to make the plunge will instead find that their maximum creature amount after that change is larger than their previous one.

This also helps manage a different issue you have where players have zero incentive to stay the same if their species fits their current environment very well.

By having the species start again in population numbers every time it adapts, players would have a sort of ‘internal minigame’ of focusing on survival and population increase for multiple generations after each change, to get their population back up to the previous numbers. This would in turn give players breathing room to actually play around with their current iteration if it’s the most well adapted, rather than changing it for no reason but its own sake of ‘more upgrades’.

The reason this works well is that in the current setup, useless negative changes have no immediate repercussion for the player, so they are led to an unsatisfying outcome where multiple bad changes compound until they die “randomly” at some point, with no ability to evade that outcome since there’s no way to predict it happening (at least for those who have not spent an unsatisfying amount of time getting used to when to hold back).

Having changes reset species number count would solve this by actually giving the player the objective to carefully manage their species numbers between necessary changes, making them actually want to manage their species and make sure it’s as well adapted as possible at any one time.

In this case they would clearly understand that changing their species for absolutely no reason would be a massive drawback for no benefit, and at the same time the minigame of ‘growing species numbers’ ensures that staying the same is not boring.

I also think that even if the negative outcry is too overwhelming, having this style of adaptation be a difficulty option would mollify those who seek challenge and scientific accuracy whilst appeasing the more gamey consumers who are obsessed with species numbers alone.

Though is is also worth considering that the only reason species numbers have any real value to the player is due to how the game is currently designed, and instead, it might be possible to emphasize adaptability and survival. Long term loss of species numbers is no big deal beyond a slightly more nail biting experience after the adaptation occurs. In fact this could enhance gameplay by making those events more impactful.

To help make this less brutal during species transitions, the autosave system can allow players to return to the moment they adapted if they get unlucky and their smaller population is decimated. And alternatively, if you want to give even more help to the player, the immediate gameplay period after changing the species could have an automatic ‘respawn as previous species in patch’ mechanic where a death returns you to your old organism with your old editor and species setup.

This way it’s more like you have one life as the newly adapted organism which is a relative of your previous orgnaism. You have one chance to reproduce as that organism, in competition with and opposed to your previous organism, and if you die, you merely continue playing as one of your previous organisms. When that occurs the species number count would jump from “1” to 300 or something depending on how many there were. And it’d just be a camera transition to the old organism like in the previous system.

To make the game more realistic, the victory condition would be based only on complexity rather than species number count.

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There’s no actual ‘win condition’ related to species numbers. Currently, the ‘You have thrived’ message pops up when you reach 2 billion years after the start, but that’s unrelated to anything else. And you can get that even if you’ve got to the point that auto-evo thinks you’ve become extinct every round (despite your species continuing).

The overall goal of the game is essentially to evolve to get from one stage to the next, and that is achieved via making changes - biological and then social changes. The player is encouraged to adapt their species over time. And it can seem weird that the species all change at the same time, but bear in mind that each time you leave the editor, 100 million years have passed.

Improvements could definitely be made to the indicators for success available to the player, though. I’m still not sure what the fitness numbers in the detailed auto-evo panel are showing. This could be made much easier for the player to see (possibly with bars for different categories, which could be read at a glance). And if a mechanic was implemented for determining roles within an ecosystem, then we could perhaps have adjustments to mutation costs inverse to the fitness within our current role (as fitting a role perfectly means less evolutionary pressure to change).

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I need to correct you here by saying that there is also a requirement of having 300 population. That’s so that if auto-evo calculations say you should be extinct (i.e. 50 population each time) you can’t actually win. Your species need to be doing well enough to not be going extinct all the time.

That’s how a game over works… having high population in multiple patches is an insurance against having a game over. Which feels more secure as a player (in any game) having one life or having 10 extra lives?