Comments on Specific Development Forum Posts

Please do not double post. Instead, edit your post, as suggested in Rule 8 of the forums;

It just creates unnecessary clutter in the thread to post multiple times without need.

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I’m not saying it’s impossible, it just needs a lot of clever ideas on paper to work.

Well, you would be putting your species in a box that it would then have to get out of to progress to the awakening stage.

In terms of completing the game, what would the point of including this be? They can exist in the game as npcs but plugging them in the player controlled editor as an option would be strenuous.

sorry I keep forgetting this.

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tying a stick to a tentacle? or are you talking about the cell organs

assuming you’re talking about the part of my post i think you are, that’s like saying for an octopus to use tools it needs to grow bones or saying that you have to have toes to domesticate a species, both are completely and obviously false. as long as the species has a brain comparable in capacity to a human’s, limbs that can hold and use tools, and a size that allows it to not get cooked by trying to cook meat (none of which were specified in the part that you are responding to here) it can progress to and past awakening

allowing the player to fully skip the multicellular stage, allowing the player to be a fungus, allowing the player to still complete the game even if another player dumps nanobots that kill everything multicellular on their planet, allowing the player to have more possible methods of digestion, breathing, and circulation, etc. basically the best and main reason is making sure there’s a way for players to not get softlocked into a stage

there are modders who would try to make it work and i know at least one plans to and if the mod is built well enough it could be added to the base game

please quote the part you’re trying to respond to it makes it far easier to know what you’re talking about and takes less than 5 seconds most of the time

the octopus civilization beyond stone age.

I was referring to the animal made of one cell organs.

Skip? Why?

I thought the devs said this would be single player and no random disaster extinctions?

I think a mixing of the dozens of earth species traits plus a few novel traits would be fun enough and would not feel too restricting.

Just remember I’m giving my input on the topic of managing game scope and computational requirements. Trying to program a system that will realistically portray non lawk and lawk species equally without any prewritten guidance will be much more of an undertaking than looking through the examples of earth species and making procedures that roughly covers all the species that will be in active play in the game.

understandable, though if they have a reason to make forged metal they could go out of water to make the forge as they can survive for around 20-30 minutes outside water and if they can’t lift heavy things they can make tools to solve that, if given the proper tools an octopus could probably make something to survive until it gets dry skin out of water

how would that lock you into a box that would keep you out of awakening until you evolved out of it?

some people might just want to do a playthrough where they ascend without becoming multicellular as a challenge

i’m pretty sure there was gonna be a multiplayer mode

just basing it off of earth species would not cover enough for everything, though if you count the cell junctions of plants as making them unicellular because it means their cytoplasm is all touching we already have unicellular organisms that can get bigger than an elephant and have differentiated tissues which would mean that, depending on how you look at it, unicellular organisms that get taller than an oak and have differentiated tissues are completely LAWK.

Seems like a plausible route.

The current examples of smart animals are primates, elephants, cetaceans, crows, parrots, and cephalopods. Being a creature with single celled organs would be something extremely unprecedented as a candidate for a civilization bearing species. So evolving into that would not get you closer to the awakening goalpost unless a thorough case can be made for it.

I would rather have the game stay in the microbe stage for the player but still tell them they won.

Well if it is a separate mode, clicking that mode comes with those risks.

Of course not everyone, but I think a majority would find it enough if mixing the traits is there. Also, I said they could sprinkle a few reasonable non lawk ideas to keep it fresh.

For the sake of game logic, I would say count them as multicellular.

I wouldn’t. With that, I’d say the largest single celled organisms are bubble algae and slime molds. I think the idea to make them playable instead of just being npcs should not take away time from the devs when major features still need to be implemented in the game. But by all means, if modders want them playable, I would love to see them make it work.

and those are all animals with complex brains and that is one of the few intelligence related similarities all of them share, i think what we can gather from that is you need a complex brain to be smart enough to enter the awakening stage, thus unicellular skin or unicellular eyes or a unicellular stomach would never affect your ability to reach awakening, maybe a brain that’s completely one cell with no membrane bound organelles that work as neurons, but there is evidence to suggest fungi can think, (of course without teaching a fungus a human language we can’t easily prove that and to do that we’d need to give it auditory input organs, visual input organs, or both and use electrodes to connect the fungus to a computer.) but even if that isn’t the case you could get an endosymbiotic unicellular organism that communicates with other members of its species via electricity and conductive filaments and eventually you could turn that and a cell or fifty full of them into a brain and the gauntlet of natural selection(or inteligent modification since the player has full control over their species) would pressure them to think for your species and you could enter the awakening stage, and if the base component for this isn’t added because it’s too non-lawk i will make it LAWK by making something that can perform phagocytosis fail to digest after feeding it a neuron.

i feel like microbe would be misleading since you have to be able to forge metal to reach ascension and you can’t really do that without a lot of sacrifices while microscopic, to not need to sacrifice hundreds per weapon you’d probably need to be at least mouse sized so it would need its own stage name, maybe polynucleate? but it should converge back to the normal stage names at aware because otherwise that’d just be weird and more work

the risk should be if you are already multicellular or someone yeets a large celestial mass into your planet vaporizing all liquid on it. not getting softlocked because somebody decided to drop something that kills anything that has more than one cell as getting softlocked at the beginning and realizing it 5 hours in is far more infuriating than dying instantly when you’re 3 hours in and halfway through evolving a brain big enough to make a society

that’s fair

i might be the one to do that if i learn how to mod by the time 2.0 comes out

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I don’t know, sounds too far out. Some questions I have is how will this kind of organism deal with large injuries and would a cell brain be filled with an overly complicated endoplasmic reticulum and or series of lysosomes modified for communication? If I was you, I would talk about it further with more qualified people.

I’ve heard they can communicate well, but I haven’t heard the idea of them straight up thinking. You got a link?

I’m not sure. Lets see how the game continues to develop and see if there is a place for stage sequence breaking

If the multi player is competitive, I imagine that is an option you have when dealing with the other players. Perhaps there can be two multi player modes, competitive and sand box.

Nice!

about the same way Stentor coeruleus does, hold in the cytoplasm and build the cell back or rearrange itself to remove the wound. but first cover any bleeding with a kind of cytoplasm specialized to coagulate when exposed directly to iron and oxygen or something else that gets released by getting injured

if you mean nucleus no but if you mean an actual cell brain then maybe but what i’d do is fill it with blood vessels and bacteria that can communicate with eachother and are modified to process information from sensory organs and use it to move the body through other bacteria of the same species that are instead modified to be long and transfer signals but not produce them, the brain would have a few nuclei but those’d just be to kill any neuron bacteria that try to become cancerous and to upkeep the shape and membrane

well to enforce competition between player you’d need something to make it more viable than not competing with other players, though if the players are all trying to be as generalist as possible then the players will already be making competition happen so maybe just let the players choose which one it is through in-game actions. and if making a server have rules against intentionally greifing someone’s planet, examples of intentionally greifing planets are: adding enough water that their planet stops having any land and solidifying the mantle to stop plate tectonics, constantly hitting their planet with meteors just big enough to starve out most flora every time something crawls on land, shattering a player’s planet right after they become just barely able to survive and reproduce in space, and many others.

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The problem already happens way before. When non-programmers suggest that a piece of software just guesses what the user means, they don’t realize that that is extremely difficult to do. It’s much better to make choices explicit and defined with clear parameters. You haven’t done that. As a result: my prediction I posted before, people will try to make what they need but a large portion of the time the game will disagree with the player’s opinion about what they made. Which leads to massive frustration with the system.

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an example that isn’t very accurate but still gets the point across for non-programmers who have played games that censor things by putting them through google word by word and comparing the words to words it finds or played roblox: if a game interprets what you’re saying by looking through the internet, you could have an entire paragraph censored because it contained a single word that one of the meanings of is not PG even though that’s not the meaning you were using, for example if you had a 10 sentence long paragraph explaining sexual dimorphism, it would ignore the “ual dimorphism” and censor it to a series of hashtags deleting all the effort you put into typing it.

Try the environmental tolerances of pH.

My idea is to obtain a pH coefficient from the pH tolerance of organisms and the environmental pH, which will be multiplied by the size/surface area of cells to obtain the Osmogulation Consumption/Maintain shape consumption.

This allows the coefficient to not have a significant impact on ATP consumption when the size is small.

This model should also be applicable to temperature.

Features:

1.The most suitable pH(x0) coefficient is the smallest and increases towards both ends.
2.The width of the adaptation zone(w/M) is negatively correlated with the decrease of the coefficient(1/w) in the adaptation zone.
3.Allowing small cells(s<S) to have the ability to design the most suitable pH(p), bringing the most suitable pH of large cells(s>S) closer to 7.


This reminds me of how bacteria secrete in extracellular digestive enzymes, and without phagocytic ability, they digest in extracellular.

The role of Siderophores seems to be to enrich trivalent iron ions as raw materials for protein synthesis, rather than the current energy production behavior of oxygen oxidation of divalent iron in games (iron bacteria). The trivalent iron ions would actually be more like phosphate and ammonia as growth and reproduction materials, or using trivalent iron ions instead of oxygen to oxidize glucose and sulfur (Iron respiration).

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There was a concept art about planet types by Sporefox. I want to suggest another planet type.

Tidally locked planets have one of their sides face the sun at all times, and in rotating planets that side constantly changes. A third type could be extremely tilted planets.

Here on earth, in most places we have a normal day and night cycle, and above the polar circles, a day lasts 6 months. That is because the earths spinning axis is tilted towards the sun. The thing about a planets spinning axis is that it stays constant as the planet rotates around the sun.

Earth_tilt_animation

During summer, the northern pole faces the sun and it is constantly illuminated. In winter it faces away and it is in the dark, it is daytime for the other pole. In the spring and autumn equinoxes, the tilt is neither towards the sun or away from it, it is sideways, so a 12 hour day is experienced in all the points on earths surface.

Earths axis tilt is 23 degrees which places the polar circles to 67th meridians, which is 23 if you count from the pole towards the equator. If the tilt was 90 degrees, the polar circles would touch the equator.

How would the sky look like in an extremely tilted planet? During the night, they would see all the stars rotating around the north star(or an empty spot) every 24 hours equivalent. But when the winter ends, they would see that another star joins them, brighter than all the others and making them impossible to see. It would spiral inwards, touching the spot of the north star exactly once during the summer equinox (if the tilt was 90 degrees) and then spiraling back where it came from. If the tilt is less than 90 degrees the sun would still rotate in a circles and the smallest that circle gets would be during the equinox. If you were close to the equator, you would be far away from both the north star and the south star. In summers and winters the sun would stay close to the horizon, keeping you in a twilight zone. In springs and autumns, it would be normal day-night cycle.

In the solar system, the most tilted planet is Uranus, it has a tilt of 97 degrees. Actually the highest one is Venus with 177 degrees but it just rotates normally (3 degrees) but in the opposite direction. Scientists once suspected* that the Earths tilt used to be 90 degrees, so maybe extreme tilt planets and less seasonal planets can turn into one another randomly.

But tidally locked planets can’t turn into either of them. Spinning planets slow down, they don’t speed up. By the way, extreme tilt planets may be more resistant to tidal locking, because there would still be tides, but they wouldn’t be a friction force, they would be more like a very long lasting high tide around the pole. At least in summers and winters. The planets most resistant to tidal locking would be the ones tidally locked to their moons. Those planets would slowly get closer to their moons if they were close to their star.

Lets talk about glaciation. In tidally locked planets, the side facing away from the sun can get as cold as absolute zero, uninhabitable except near volcanos. But it may also be hot, winds and water currents can carry warmth from the hot side and cool down the hot side. But in extremely tilted planets, this can’t happen. If an air current tries to move over the equator to the other side (since the planet is rotating) it would experience a corriolis force and be forced to turn, giving us a hurricane. Here is a map of all the hurricanes that happened between 1985 and 2005.

Global_tropical_cyclone_tracks-edit2

You can see that they tend to stay in the same latitude. Some of them were close to the equator, but none crossed to the other hemisphere. The water currents feel the same corriolis force, so there wouldn’t be any heat transfer between the two hemispheres in an extreme tilt planet, the dark side would completely freeze, there would be meters of snow on land and the top layer of oceans would freeze. The creatures would have three options to survive

  1. Hibernate during the winter and do life activities in summer

  2. Migrate between the two hemispheres every year

  3. Always live near the equator

Life would probably appear in the equator. The second and first strategies would evolve later.

There is an upside to snow. It is a source of fresh water in the spring, which benefits both wildlife and civilisations. And the glacier movements and meltwater rivers would cause erosion which brings minerals to the water and feeds algal blooms. A downside is that too much erosion can remove the topsoil and leave a rocky surface behind. Snowfall wouldn’t be equally distributed, the deserts in the middle of large continents wouldn’t receive snow. Antartctica is pretty small. There are some mountains there that are above the ice cover, which is 2 kilometers high. If there was a high plateau that precipitation and glacial sliding couldn’t reach, we could have had ice free regions in the antarctic.

The last thing I will mention is Milankovich cycles. On earth, antarctica doesn’t melt despite a 6 month lasting daylight, but suns rays hit the polar latitudes at a low angle. If the poles faced the sun more directly, I am guessing they would melt. One of the milanchovich cycles is about the earths axial tilt. It has been oscillating between 22 and 24.5 degrees every 41 thousand years in the last 5 million years. An increased tilt is associated with ice ages, because the more of the sunlight would be hitting the poles which are covered in ice, so more of it would be reflected, cooling the planet. How would albedo play a part in the climate of extremely tilted planets?

In spring and autumn, the equator would take the most sunshine, so it would be melted. Unless it isn’t, in which case we would be talking about uninhabited or Europa like planets. As summer begins in one hemisphere, the ices would start receding, the last ones to melt being the ones on the poles. The sea ice would melt first and the continents would melt later. Trade winds may bring rain and melt the continents, the coasts that receive little rain may keep a permenant ice cover. If a continent starts to melt, it may melt completely or there may be continents that don’t melt at all like Greenland, which is surrounded by ice free waters and is at the same latitude as Canada which has no permenant ice cover. A continent that melted the last year may not melt the next year, which may cool the planet with its reflection and cause an ice age or vice verca. Snowball earths may be more common. The equator would be cooler in the spring and autumn and may not remain tropical. The climate zone for warm weather may constantly move, so maybe the climates we use to describe earth would not as neatly apply.

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Now there are specialized stored vacuoles, allow for increased storage of specific compounds.

Can we consider making some adjustments to the storage of organelles?

Reduce the commonstorage provided by each organelle (excluding cytoplasm and vacuoles) and increase the storage of compounds related to the biochemical processes of that organelle.

Commons torage only applies to compounds and not agents.

For example, Metabolosomes and Thylakoid provide glucose storage, Nitrogenase provides ammonia storage, and Rusticinin provides iron storage.

Optional upgrade of cytoplasm: reducing common storage, increasing glycolysis and glucose storage.

I think jet organelles and production organelles should be separated.
Seperate Agent Production and Expulsion Between Unique Parts · Thrive Suggestions (revolutionarygamesstudio.com)


Allow flagella to provide ATP storage.

What would supply Phosphate storage?
Also more processes use ATP than just Flagella. For example, Nuclei and Toxin Vacuoles both use ATP.

Please use common storage and specialized storage organelles for phosphate storage.

The common storage provided by organelles can store ATP. I think that flagella, as motor organelles, consume a large amount of ATP and should provide more ATP storage.

ATP isn’t something that is stored irl. What matters is how fast the cell breaks down glucose. I guess the amount of ADP+ATP in the cell does limit the maximum amount of energy that can move around in the cell at a given moment. But I think only cytoplasm and metabolosomes should store ATP because they do the glycolysis and respiration(you can add photoheterotropic and other directly atp creating organelles to this list). ATP shouldn’t be a way to storage energy in the long term(so it should only depend on the sources of atp, not on atp users). And those 2 organelles should increase the amount of phosphate required to grow.

In my opinion, all organelles will provide basic common storage (including various compounds such as ATP, glucose, ammonia, phosphates. Not including agents), and on this basis, specialized storage will be provided based on its function.

The ATP in cells is in a dynamic equilibrium state, and current games represent reaching equilibrium with ATP storage full.

The flagella, as a motor organ, increase ATP consumption, meaning a greater amount is required as a buffer when ATP is balanced.

Suddenly, it occurred to me whether it could determine the output of cell movement and the percentage of ATP stored through ATP consumption. This allows cells that do not produce enough ATP to maintain movement to move steadily but slowly.

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So you need more metabolosomes.

There wouldn’t be a need to have glucose or metabolosomes if ATP did everything glucose did.

Just a small thing, my opinion on the more recent discussion on this thread is that I really like the idea but I hope the numbers are treated more like a background process than completely covering the cell.

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