Ideas for the Microbe Stage [Put your ideas in this thread]

Future Game Microbe Stage
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Time for some necromancy!

The latest video from Journey to the Microcosmos mentioned that a species of paramecium had toxic bacteria within it that it used to kill other, competing paramecium species. Perhaps endosymbiosis (if it is implemented) should include not only mitochondria and chloroplasts, but also toxin organelles (and perhaps all of the advanced eukaryote organelles).

Also, from what I understand, mitochondria appeared before nuclei and provided the energy that allowed cells to support nuclei, as the nucleus is relatively energy-intensive. If I am correct, then perhaps Thrive should be reworked so nuclei are unlocked after a certain energy production threshold is crossed. This threshold could be high enough that only mitochondrion/chloroplast/etc. bearers could pass it.

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I would like to have other colored chloplasts? I dont know how it would affect the gameplay but just for variation it would be niceChlorophyll table
Also it would be nice to affect the atmosfere before the microbe stage.

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Processes
You would start with basic processes, like anaerobic respiration, protein making, etc. You would be able to unlock new processes, by evolving them somehow, or conjugating with another cell. Conjugation would not be possible with a nucleus, or with a too distantly related species. This would allow you to unlock all processes that the other cell has, and that cell gets all of your processes.
Endosymbiosis
You would be able to absorp cells, and use their processes. You could change how effective a cell is at something, but increasing one process reduces the others. Endosymbiosis would allows you to specialise different organelles for different processes. You could also ‘conjugate’ with endosymbionts. If you got endosymbioted, you could also still play as the cell that absorped you (Because it would still have your DNA)
Nucleus
You could evolve a nucleus by creating a membrane around the cell’s DNA and then making it a nucleus (Or however the normal nucleus-making way will be). However, you could also get a nucleus by entering a large prokaryote, destroying its DNA, taking control, and becoming the nucleus.

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Do you know its better to post this in the microbe stage [put your ideas in this thread]?
https://community.revolutionarygamesstudio.com/t/ideas-for-the-microbe-stage-put-your-ideas-in-this-thread/1885/63

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I’ll merge this thread with the another one as this seems exactly the same thing. It’s still fine to open discussion threads separately for specific features.

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In my opinion nucleus should also expand the zooming capabilities, you (as an archea) will see less of the world then with a nucleus, or maybe not it would just slimmer down the possibilities.
And also the toxin agents as some sort of “compound” that would decay over some period of time.
And are there already plans for a sucking pilus.

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I very much like the idea of a limited perspective being expanded over the course of the game. I think Will Wright had the right idea with powers of ten. Luca should not be able to sense much. I think the player should be blind to everything until he evolves sensory organs. The player should not know what the lux value of his biome is until he evolves eyespots. This should also apply for toxins, temperature, sound, etc. Humans cannot detect carbon monoxide, for example. If the ability to detect it became important enough, there would be evolutionary pressure in favor of humans who can smell it.

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In the shoutbox I asked about hydrogen metabolism, and Hhyyrylainen responded in the quick question thread by saying that he didn’t know about the topic. I responded with a lot of links, and meanwhile I read more information and created two concepts for an organelle I hope to see added to the game (alongside another atmospheric gas).

thrive hydrogenase

This is hydrogenase, an enzyme used by many microorganisms to oxidize or reduce hydrogen. Oxidation is what I am interested in here. Before the photosynthesizers changed Earth’s atmospheric composition, there was much more hydrogen in the atmosphere and oceans. This hydrogen was used by anaerobic organisms to generate energy. They were and are autotrophs and can form the basis of ecosystems. They are the plankton of an anaerobic world.

Hydrogen gas is two hydrogen atoms, and hydrogenase basically snaps them apart and uses the energy from that to drive cellular processes. At the center of hydrogenases (there are many) is either iron, nickel, or both, which means that the iron already in the game could be made more useful. The hydrogen is produced by nitrogenase, which is already in the game. As such, the addition of hydrogen as an atmospheric gas is overdue, I think. Nitrogenase should consume hydrogen sulfide and generate hydrogen gas as a byproduct, and hydrogenase should take that hydrogen gas and make ATP. Technically hydrogenases do not produce ATP, but rather NADP. However, I think this simplification is acceptable due to Thrive needing to be a fun video game. Also, iron is a catalyst in the reaction and is not consumed, but my concept has it being consumed in a small amount in order to create more interactions with iron. Besides, hydrogen-oxidizing bacteria do need to consume iron to begin the process.

Notice that the rate of ATP production in my concepts scales negatively with oxygen concentration. This is because oxygen binds to the iron and blocks hydrogen, thereby stopping energy production. Ultraviolet radiation messes with it too, but I was uncertain if having two negative modifiers would be any fun, so I made two concepts (one with lux and one without). I was uncertain how to represent a negative modifier in the equation part. I think this negative interaction would make the game much more interesting. I had difficulty finding any numbers for the efficiency of hydrogen oxidation. The only number I could find was 10,000 H+ per second.

Here are two sources which contain far more than enough information for Thrive about hydrogenase

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000527281300025X
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/hydrogenase

Here is a eukaryotic counterpart to hydrogenase: the hydrogenosome.

thrive hydrogenosome

This thing is a degenerate mitochondrion that lost the ability to function in oxygen and instead utilizes hydrogenase (and lots of other things that are too specific for Thrive). This means that anaerobes can have a powerhouse too! Almost all the species which use these are unicellular, though there are a few subterranean animals which are entirely anaerobic; they die in the prescence of oxygen and rely on hydrogenosomes like we rely on mitochondria. The hydrogenosome could also be used by a species which only occasionally lives in anoxic environments or lives on the border between oxygen and not-oxygen.

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I had fun making that concept earlier today, so I made another. This one is for the chlorosome, which is used by some bacteria for anoxygenic photosynthesis (that is, photosynthesis which does not produce oxygen). It is related to another element I wish to see added to the game: sulfur.

thrive chlorosome

The chemical process is 6CO2 + 12H2S + light -> C6H12O6 (glucose) + 12S + 6H2O. For Thrive, this means that it uses hydrogen sulfide, light, and carbon dioxide to make glucose and sulfur. Unlike my previous concept, this one has no negative modifier and is not directly inhibited by oxygen. However, organisms which utilize this are probably unable to survive in oxygen for other reasons, as aerobic life would not need to use this kind of photosynthesis. It is not very efficient, however. It requires 12 hydrogen sulfide to make one glucose. The bacteria which utilize this method tend to have very low metabolic rates. However, chlorosomes are more sensitive than chloroplasts, which allows them to work with extremely dim light, including the glow of hydrothermal vents! I found a paper written by scientists who discovered photosynthetic bacteria at a vent (there is a link to it in the spoiler). Due to the ephemeral nature of vents, the bacteria only supplement their energy needs with photosynthesis, as the source of light is not stable enough to allow them to be exclusively photosynthetic. This paper is where I learned what wavelength chlorosomes can utilize. In Thrive, a very low lux value (maybe 1-2%) could be added to hydrothermal vents to simulate this.

Speaking of which, I think light wavelengths should also be added to Thrive. Different stars produce different amounts of different wavelengths, and different atmospheres block different wavelengths. In other words, the wavelengths available for photosynthesis can vary greatly between worlds. For this to be useful in Thrive, more photosynthetic organelles will need to be added which specialize in different wavelengths. Alternatively, if organelles can be edited, chloroplasts could be tweaked to focus on a particular wavelength.

For further information, follow these links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoxygenic_photosynthesis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1166624/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_respiration

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How would being a large cilliate-like cell impact the transition out of the microbe stage? Would it lead to more efficiency in the multicellular and aware stage (because you’ve already made efficient ways for cells to do things)?

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Why would being a large cilliate-like cell impact the transition? why is it more efficient in comparison to other cells? i don’t seem to understand how having cillia makes cells better fit at doing “things” in comparison to other cells.

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Large cilliates like Paramecium are more complex, with specialised organelles similar to an animal. This may impact the development of multicellularity, due to the fact that some organs would already exist as organelles

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1.) The cell editor doesn’t have a way to show you whether or not your cell design is actually viable. At best it has the ATP bar that shows how much ATP your cell is capable of making and how much it is capable of using. but it doesn’t take into account other factors such as glucose production from Chemosynthesis or Photosynthesis. in summary this can result in the creation of a photosynthetic cell that is capable of producing enough ATP to sustain itself if it has enough glucose, but not enough glucose to actually sustain itself. and because of the way the game is designed. after evolving a horribly nonviable cell, trying to obtain enough ammonia and phosphate to reproduce and fix your mistake becomes horribly harder, and your only chance to get ammonia and phosphate are by committing suicide and taking advantage of the compound bloom when you respawn. i’m sure that in the future when the compound spawning becomes more balanced this will become less of an issue. but the problem still stands. because the game doesn’t have a way to see if your cell is viable. once you create a nonviable cell. Replicating to fix your mistake becomes much harder.

2.) After collecting some ammonia and phosphate. your organelles will duplicate. I really dislike this. One second i’m playing as a cell who’s organelles are working together in harmony. The next second something in my cell has duplicated and my stored glucose and iron begins to deplete and my cell starves and dies. the duplication of organelles adds another layer of complexity by forcing the player to think about whether or not cell will still be viable after having their organelles duplicate. and this added complexity isn’t just fun and feels unnecessary.

i propose that similarly to spores creature editors’ ‘test drive’. Thrives cell editor should implement a “test drive” that allows you to test the viability of your cells design. Essentially your cell will spawn into a small circular container that mimics your current patches average environmental conditions. In this test drive you will be capable off spawning compounds in this container (as well as other species?) and altering environmental conditions.

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I have some ideas for organelles
Myoneme
The myoneme would be an organelle that connects two locations. It could be changed to be more like a muscle or a real-world myoneme
Joint
This would be a joint in the cell wall. It would be placed on the outside of the cell, and would act as a gap in the cell wall, allowing parts of the cell to rotate relative to the rest of the cell
Cosmetic Unit
This would be like cytoplasm but in the background and it doesn’t interact with the world. This would be useful to make internal structures like a stomach or crop
Holdfast
This would be a structure that could attach to either the background in certain patches, or to other cells when on the surface.

These organelles would allow more complex cells

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So… IDK if anyone else does this, but one of the strategies I use when playing thrive is sheltering myself with iron chunks. This probably isn’t an intentional feature, but what if it could be? The multicellular stage brought up binding agents and cellular matrices, and if they can be attached to cells, why not everything else? It would make building shelters as cells much easier, and you may be able to make a shell around you. If you are an iron eater, it will be literal heaven where you find a rock every generation. Some real-life amoeba already do it, so why not us?

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One issue with a holdfast is that it wouldn’t be very fun playing as a sedentary creature currently. Same story as playing as a plant in later stages.

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Something akin to this has been mentioned in the official Thrive wiki I believe, where microbes could attach to iron masses and crawl around/pull on them with certain cohesive agents. However, not much detail has been put into this concept and not much benefit from this feature has been thought of that extends to just being able to attach to iron and drag it around/float around with it. I think this idea could have potential, but it definitely needs more detail; maybe starting a seperate thread where community members could focus on thinking of other mechanics attached (pun intended) to this feature.

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What if there was a temporary holdfast, that could be detached to allow motion?

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I think improving the organelle sprites would be an interesting improvement. That and having a reset button, so you could restart your cell entirely.

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One feature I’d like to see is a sort of ‘evolutionary reversal’ button. I had a play through where I tried to continuously evolve to each patch without changing my structure. This of course led to me ending up in a patch where I couldn’t get the necessary chemicals to evolve. I had evolved into a dead-end, and couldn’t revert back to a biome where I could get the right chemicals. It seems weird to me that I’d have to go extinct or restart the game in order to try again.

Maybe there should be a button that allows the player to revert back to the previous state of their species (including location) for a small price, like -50 population.

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