Lets figure out Thrive 0.4.1 guys

(lowskill) #1

Introduction

Hello everyone, it’s me again. The new version of our beloved game is out and I’m gonna bring my little project back.
Figuring out Thrive 0.4.0 went in the wrong direction, but it had some interesting ideas, so I’ve decided to try doing something similar, but with a few changes.
First of all, my previous idea of build review was too strict and specific. The problem is that creating a sample of such proportions is possible, but reading a review took a lifetime. Basically, it was - “Three minutes of playing, ten minutes of writing”. So, I’ve decided to make it more freeform.
I’ll just play the game and post everything I found interesting and worth sharing. It’ll probably start with my reaction to new mechanics, and it will evolve into more in-depth analysis as I become better and more familiar with the game.

Second thing I want to mention is that I basically cheesed the game last time. Technically, I have found the best way to beat the current version of the game, but it missed the point. So, keeping in mind, that I am kinda supposed to become complex multicellular creature, I’ve decided to spend all MP at every single evolution, so I won’t go reductionist again. Also, I won’t be giving much attention to prokaryotic gameplay. Don’t worry, I’ll find another way to cheese that game.

Everyone is welcomed to join me in my quest to find the best build in the game.

By the way, you probably dont want to read everything I write, so I am distinguishing some key points:
If it is written in cursive, it is the thing I want to put an accent on.
If it is underlined, it is really important or one of the main thoughts of the post.

2 Likes
(lowskill) #2

Lets get started

Lets start with my initial impressions.
First of all, great job fixing the loading screens.
Soo, I’ve started the game with a single hex of cytoplasm. The first thing I’ve noticed is that you can zoom out really far away. But you are so tiny you can barely even see yourself if you zoom out really far.
It is kinda hard to see the clouds when you zoom in if you are not accustomed to it and the controls are a bit wonky when you’re so small, due to your cursor being too close to the cell. But overall, everything looks and feels good.
I was really surprised when I saw eukaryotic cells, because I thought that everyone starts as a single hex of cytoplasm now.
For my first run, I’ve decided to stick with the prokaryotic cell. As always, I went for cytoplasm. And cytoplasm costs an arm and a leg nowadays.

Having some kind of a progress bar to a next evolution would be really nice.
Also, this happened to me after death, dont want if that’s intended.
image
There were three eukaryotic species in my playthrough, and two of them weren’t able to keep up with the osmoregulation costs, so they were dying immediately. But, for some reason, they managed to not get extinct somehow and they survived until generation 11 (I stopped the run afterwards). Of course, I was able to capitalize off of that. For the whole game I was just following these guys and ate their corpses. And their AI is not smart at all. The problem was that they were dying out of starvation only because they were constantly moving. Well, some of them acquired an ability to stop, but they saw me as an easy prey, so I baited them to chase me and die.

When I closed the game, those guys were almost extinct, so the only eukaryotic species left was a huge cell that got everything. Well, everybody knows about organelle gluttony at that point, so I’ll not address that.

By the way, iron respiration on prokaryotes is so slow that it is unbearable.
I don’t know why, but I had a feeling that I have cheesed the game, because that is not supposed to happen.
Either cells have to stop when they run out of ATP, or Auto-Evo should be faster, so these poor guys could go extinct quicker.

Another thing I have noticed is that population of player species is dependant only on player’s actions. The problem with that is simple - PC’s cells could increase their population exponentially - the more of them exists, the more they can reproduce. Player’s cell, on the other hand is very limited in that sense. I think that can severely hurt plant gameplay, or strategies that involve fast reproduction.

3 Likes
(lowskill) #3

Delicious cheese

Long story short, I’ve tried going for an early nucleus and oh boy, that was a mistake. Osmoregulation costs are way too much to handle. Good thing I had a prokaryotic version of mitochondria (forgot its name) and somehow managed to get to the next evolution before extinction.
And - I have only put one additional mitochondria on myself.
I have put myself in the situation in which I move only in short bursts of around two seconds before running out of atp and having to recharge it. I couldn’t hunt, I couldn’t collect clouds, by all accounts my species should go extinct. To top it off, there were no instadying species this time, except for mine.
*And here is the delicious cheese I’ve talked about. Since players species population is based solely on the players performance, I started to eat the corpses of my brothers and sisters. And the best thing - being a cannibal actually increases your population.. I continued doing that for around three generations, until I finally put enough mitochondria to move properly.
But before I was able to move properly I was in some kind of transitional state, where I was able to move indefinitely after being spawned, but, as I grew, I became bigger and had to stop more and more often. I actually really liked that mechanic - it adds depth and believability to the gameplay. At first you are agile and able to scavenge and collect clouds, and later you become big enough to hunt most other species, but you are not that fast anymore.
I would like to compare this version of the game with v0.3.4. The difficulty of 0.3.4 was in finding resources, but main difficulty in 0.4.1 is in balancing your osmoregulation costs. Right now I dont know how to make a cell with nucleus work if you are not adding at least two mitochondria right away.
For that reason alone playing as eukaryote seems much more challenging than playing prokaryote - at least until you are more familiar with the game. I’m not sure if it is how the game should work.
Another thing I have noticed is that in my two runs eukaryotes were playing really passive, while prokaryotes were much more agressive. I have met a cell with a toxin vacuole only once, and haven’t seen a pilus yet. But both of my runs containeda species of toxic prokaryotes, who are afraid of nothing.
That toxic prokaryotes were completely bodying me until I put enough mitochondria to move. That’s how they did it: For some reason a single prokaryote could push me with a reasonable speed (thanks to the water physics, I suppose) and that counted as moving, so I couldn’t replenish my atp and died of starvation several times.
If that works on other cells, I have an idea that could completely break the game.

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#4

That’s planned for 0.4.2.

3 Likes
(Rathalos) #5

You might have noticed this becomes worse the closer you get to reproducing. There appears to be an issue where ATP consumption is increased when growing, but ATP production is not. You can read more about it here. There will probably have to be a bit of rebalancing after this is fixed.

Yes, I noted this as well in my feedback post, hopefully it’s also fixed in the next version.

1 Like
(tjwhale) #6

This is very nice feedback thanks, a lot of these are little things and when we fix them the game will be stronger :slight_smile:

(Untrustedlife) #7

Yeah, theres alot of unviable AI cells in 0.4.1, this was a bug that prevented about half of the starting organelle conifgurations from being used at the beginning (Its fixed in the dev builds already, also, having more compound then you can hold is also already fixed) which is why i suggested we put out a hotfix but no one seems to want to.

Also, what do you think of the new verison… better then 0.4.0 ?

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(lowskill) #8

The new version is objectively much better from a technical standpoint. It havent crashed even once for me, it looks better and it just feels better.
I really like that you start as a single hex of cytoplasm.
From a balance point of view - I can’t really give you a deep analysis after only playing a few runs, but the atp costs feel to restrictive atm.

2 Likes
(lowskill) #9

Why cell composition matters (or not)

It appears that this version of the game is not easily cheesable.
The previous run I have talked about was definitely the cheese, but I haven’t been able to recreate this. Here’s a thing I’ve noticed - every run feels unique and special, even if you are going for the same build. There are some patterns though and I’m gonna talk about them later.
For the previous run I had described - it appears that much more was going on with it than I originally mentioned.
First of all, my cell was not able to move, so it died when something pushed it. So, other cells were rewarded for just pushing me around, and they evolved to do this. After several generations of cannibalism I was finally able to move properly, at least until I grew twice as big. By that time there was a crowd following me. I was the shepherd and they were the sheep. When I became big enough, I just needed to turn around and eat all of them.
Soo, I was basically rewarded for playing bad. I dont mean anything bad, this sort of comeback mechanic is really good, but it should be nerfed.
That was freaking hillarious and I love this game, but this should definitely not happen.
My point again is that other cells of my species should also have an effect on my overall population.

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(Untrustedlife) #10

We just released 0.4.1.1

1 Like
(lowskill) #11

And I was in a middle of organelle review…
Is ATP bug fixed?

(Untrustedlife) #12

Nah ATP bug isnt fixed but a few other bugs are fixed and new organelles are around and other stuff.

(lowskill) #13

My opinion on every single organelle in the game.

Before I begin, I feel like this version is about producing enough ATP. Everything else kind of doesn’t matter now.
Also, as it was mentioned somewhere, the game behaves wonky when you grow. It seems like your atp production doesnt grow.
What that means - right now you need to produce a lot of atp.

S Tier - always use
Mitochondria - 45 mp, converts 1 oxy+0.2 glucose -> 45 ATP, gives 2 storage space, takes 2 hexes.
Mitochondria is the go-to way to increase your atp production, combo: 5 mitochondria + 1 chloroplast could be build for three evolutions and gives you 34 free atp/second(47 - 5*2-3). Plus, it has a 22.5 cost-per hex ratio, which is really good.
In the current circumstances it is not 34, but 34 - 5*2 - 3 = 21, because ATP production does not grow when cell grows. And you have to maintain the nucleus, which also doubles. That means, that you kind of have to go for this combo.

Chloroplast - 55 mp, converts 0.09 co2 -> 1 glucose, gives 2 storage space, takes three hexes.
Ok, first of all, the mitochondria+chloroplast combo, second - it is the best glucose producer, third - even without that it has the best cost-per-hex ratio aside of nucleus, so I would sometimes use it for making it easier to engulf others.

A Tier - almost always use
Metabolosome - 45 mp, converts 1 oxy+1 glu -> 38 ATP, gives 1 storage space, takes one hex.
It is basically a mitochondria, but it consumes more glucose. It is really not a problem, since everything produces glucose. So, the main difference is that mytochondria gives you one more hex for the same price, which is good for engulfing stuff. And it is also the best option if you want to go for a quick nucleus.

Nucleus - 100 mp, gives you access to eukaryotic organelles, gives 15 storage space, takes 10 hex. Can only be placed once.
Well, I would like to talk about nucleus in a separate post. Right now I only want to tell that it is the best cost-per-hex organelle, and it has a better cost-per-storage ratio than a cytoplasm. So, if you could place more than one, I would go for it.

B Tier - just a good organelle
Vacuole - 50 mp, gives 15 storage space, takes one hex
Vacuole is finally relevant. It is a good choise, if you have to stop every three seconds to recharge your atp. Sad thing is that vacuole will probably be not relevant after the bug fix

Cytoplasm - 30 mp cost, performs glycolysis, gives 4 storage space, takes one hex.
This organelle is cery weird. It cost-per-hex is 30, which is one of the worst in the game, so it can’t be used for making yourself bigger, it performs glycolysis, but in that category it gets outclassed by literally anything, it gives storage space, but vacuole does it better.
The worst thing is the price. While most organelles cost 45 or 55, which makes for nice 45+55 combo, cytoplasm costs 30, so, if you put it in combination with something, you are just wasting at least 15 mp, which just feels bad.
But here is the thing. While cytoplasm is really bad in combination with other organelles, it suddenly becomes good when used in combination with itself. For 90 mp you can have 12 ATP and 12 storage space, which is almost as much as having two metabolosomes and a vacuole(13 atp and 15 storage space for 140 mp). That combo makes cytoplasm the best choise in oxygen-free environments. It is not top tier, because 12 apt is not enough for gan3 nucleus.

Toxin vacuole - 70 mp, converts 1 oxy + 5 ATP -> 5 oxytoxy, gives 5 storage space, takes one hex.
Well, I have mixed feelings about this organelle. On the one hand, it is the only way of ranged combat and the only way to kill enemies which are bigger than you, but on the other hand there are a lot of prokaryotes swimming around for you to eat. It could be good in some cases, and it is fun to use. The biggest downside is that you have to add another mitochondria to be able to keep up with the atp costs.
Edit: well, apparently it is the best late-game choise, because by gen10 everything is big and you get really much from one kill. Also, by that time ATP becomes less of a problem.

C Tier - situational use
Chemoplast - 45 mp, performs glycolysis, converts 0.09 co2+1 sulf -> 2 glu, gives 2 storage space, takes tow hexes.
This organelle is actually the fastest glucose producer, so you can totally go for it. The only problem is that you dont really need much glucose to produce a lot of atp. Otherwise this organelle would be in B tier.

Flagellum - 55 mp, gives speed, gives one storage space, takes one hex.
Edit: the movement speed increase shown in the editor must be bugged because two flagella could drastically increase your speed. ATP cost is really high for them though and you probably dont want to go for them until the late game.
Why only C-Tier for the only organelle that gives you a speed advantage? Because you dont need speed to shoot big cells in the late game and because AI cells cant use flagellas properly, so your basic movement speed should be enough to escape opponents that should be much faster than you.

D Tier - almost never use
Chromatophore - 55 mp, performs glycolysis, converts 0.09 co2->0.015 glu, gives one storage space, takes one hex.
This organelle gives you 4 ATP/sec for free. Plus a bonus of 1 glucose every 40 seconds. While this is good, 4 ATP is much less than what mitochondria and metabolosome could give you. I can see this work in environments with no oxygen and co2 whatsoever. Otherwise mitochondria+chloroplast is a much better alternative.

Rusticyanin - 45 mp, turns 0.021oxy+0.09co2+0.175iron -> 10 ATP, gives 1 storage space, takes one hex.
This organelle turns iron straight into ATP. It is so low in the list because you need to have both oxygen and co2 to make this work, and you need to find chunks of iron. The only benefit of this organelle - it does not require glucose, but it is too easy to find glucose in the current meta.
And, if you have oxygen and co2, you can just use mitochondrion+chloroplast combo.

NFP - 50 mp, converts 1 oxy + 5 atp -> 0.5 ammonia, gives 2 storage space, takes two hexes.
This organelle has good stats now, yay. You can put two of them per evolution, which would drain 10 atp/sec, but give you 60 ammonia after only a minute. The only problem is that you need phosphates more often than ammonia, and the meta is too fast-paced for this organelle to really shine.

F Tier - never use
Chemosynthisizing Proteins - 45 mp, performs glycolysis, converts 1 co2+1 sulf -> 1 glu, gives 1 storage space, takes one hex.
The biggest problem with this organelle is works 11 times slower than the chemoplast and it provides only 0.09 glucose per second. That is just ridiculous.

Nitrogenase - 55 mp, converts 2 N + 10 ATP -> 0.02 ammonia, gives 2 storage, takes one hex
This new thing… First of all, it drains 3 ATP per second. Second - it takes 10 ATP to produce 0.02 ammonia. That is 500 ATP per 1 ammonia. Just never use that.

Closing thoughts:
Right now the game is balanced around atp production and there will be some clear winners and losers in that category, no matter how much rebalancing will be going on. All of the D-tier organelles are so low because they require ATP(which is the limiting factor now) or they shine when there is not a lot of glucose.

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(Untrustedlife) #14

First off i gotta say, i love this, an organelle tier list heck to the yeah.

About your question of why do some take 1 and some take 0.09 etc, so the way this works is that what happens is that it takes the percentage of the gas (lets take c02 for instance) if the process takes 0.09 (the exact percentage that exists in the atmopherte you can expect it to reliably produce the numbers it displays per second (since its getting 0.09 c02 per second).

So example if it says:
converts 0.09 co2 -> 1 glucose That means you reliably get 1 glucose per second. (Because the atmosphere is 0.09 c02 so you are getting 0.09 C02 per second (9%) so its running at 100% efficiency)

But if it said
converts 1 co2 -> 1 glucose and the CO2 in the atmosphere was 0.09 That means you instead will only get 0.09 glucose per second because it is scaled based on atmospheric c02. since now its only running at 9% efficiency (because there is 0.09 in the atmosphere so you are only getting 0.09 per second and you need a total of 1 per second for 1 glucose per second so you end up with 0.09 per second)

And if it said:
converts 0.045 co2 -> 1 glucose and the CO2 in the atmosphere was 0.09 That means you instead will be getting a whopping 2 glucose per second now because now its running at 200% efficiency. (because there is 0.09 in the atmosphere and you only need 0.45 per second for 1 glucose so you get 2)

Think of those atmosphere numbers as the amount of that compound you are gathering from atmospheric diffusion around you every second.

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(Untrustedlife) #15

Sorry for the typos, heh reread if you havent with the edits

(lowskill) #16

Soo, for example, metabolosome only gives you around 8 ATP per second and mitochondria only gives you 9.2?

(Untrustedlife) #17

Yep exactly that is how it works Though i think your numbers are a tad off

(lowskill) #18

Well, that means I have to play around six runs and rewrite the whole list. I originally assumed that moving costs 1 atp per hex you have, but it seems that I was wrong.
Oh, it makes so much more sence now

(Untrustedlife) #19

Mitochondria produces 9.45
Metabolosome:
7.98

Its actually a significant difference. In gameplay especially due to the glucose difference when massed.

If a process requires two gasses, you will have to take into account both percentages,

(A tier list youtube video would be cool lol)

(tjwhale) #20

This is great feedback, thanks, the tier list is really helpful.