Spode
(He who created all life in his stupid image)
1
Since these topics include quite a few important questions about the design of the Multicellular and especially the Aware Stage, I figured it would be best to open a new thread to discuss this here, since the last discussion of this matter didn’t cover everything I had in mind.
As we all know, metamorphosis describes a drastic change in the anatomy and occupied niche of an animal during the transition from larval to adult form in the life cycle of an animal. This is of course a fascinating aspect of biology to explore and would not only increase the realism of the simulation, but also offer the player an opportunity to experience very different play styles during the life of a single organism (e.g. playing as a scavenging aquatic larval form, focused on hiding and avoiding danger, and then transition to a predatory aerial organism, focused on mobility and active hunting). I personally think that different stages of metamorphosis could very well be implemented by tweaking the caste system a bit, and allowing an organism to occupy different castes at different times and chronologically progress through them (probably via a pupation event, that the player can trigger after gathering enough resources).
However, this begs another question: How do you properly simulate the ontogenesis of organisms, that do not go through metamorphosis? Intuitively, you would start as just a smaller version of the adult form, with lower stats and capacity to hold food and gradually grow into a full fledged adult. But this would obviously be a gross oversimplification, since proportions and behaviour of an animal often change drastically during their lifetime (e.g. Tyrannosaurus probably showed ontogenetic niche partitioning, which means that juveniles were built for hunting different animals than adults and were built accordingly (longer legs, weaker muscles in neck and jaw, for hunting smaller, more agile prey), to not compete directly with the adults).
What would be the best way to properly implement these factors into the aware stage? You could theoretically choose which tissues to prioritize during character growth in the editor, but this might involve some very frustrating finetuning, so you don’t overprioritize on tissue a bit too much during a certain age and end up with an organism with an unviable stage in his life cycle, just because you pulled a slider a bit too far. Similar problems arise with the behavioral editor, since obviously juveniles should act differently than adults and might need to hide from animals that their parents would hunt without a second thought. For this it might be enough to add a few if-conditions to the logic gates, e.g. “IF size/age below X, AND encounter with animal Y, THEN run etc.”, but I might be overlooking stuff.
That would be all from me for now, I am looking forward to your thoughts on the matter.
I think that this feature should be handled similarly to sexual dimorphism and eusocial castes - and I propose for a new addition to this concept: the species should be edited as a neuter adult first and foremost.
Any form differences between males and females or something different, as well as children and adults, would be added onto the default of the species. This means you could evolve the species as a whole and synchronize changes between forms. This would also allow smooth transitions as an individual grows.
Different life cycles would obviously change how your species can develop. Eggs are cheap, but can only develop an organism so far - mechanically, they have a low maximum complexity. Gestation will allow a more complex organism to be formed at birth, but will strain the mother for a relatively long amount of time. A cocoon will allow radical morphological changes to be made, as caterpillars turn everything but their brain to mush in order to self-gestate.
Butterfly life cycles are very interesting and specialized, and would be nice to see in Thrive.
Pupation only makes sense for ecdysozoa, and other things that shed their skin. There should also be gradually transformation from one form to another (or perhaps you could have both in the same creature)
Spode
(He who created all life in his stupid image)
5
The classification into ecdysozoa and other organisms becomes kind of meaningless, when you consider that thrive will evolve a complete ecosystem from scratch without phyla and groups similar to earth. I would imagine a choice between different kinds of metamorphic transitions between the stages, connected with different boni and mali, similar to the choice between the membranes in the microbe stage. E.g. cocooning might require an additional resource for building the cocoon and take longer, but offer a larger degree of change at once, while metamorphosis via multiple successive moults might be faster, but only allow gradual change (maybe via limiting the amount of MP, that may be used to change the different castes/life stages from each other) and require more stages to reach the adult form.
And gradual transformation should obviously be included into the game, probably even as default, due to its intuitive nature, but the design problems I mentioned in the initial post about it still remain. Unless you have ideas to tackle these issues, in which case I would be happy to hear them.
I was refering in general to ecdysozoon-like creatures, like how the word ‘humanoid’ is often used. Also, many insects pupate without using a cocoon, and a few even continue to move around as a pupa.
Perhaps a creature that doesn’t shed skin could evolve to create a temporary covering in order to pupate? And finally, a pupa is not necessary, as a creature could transform inside the larva, and then emerge. Perhaps the larva could recover, and then have another adult develop inside.
yes you could make something like a scorpion but it doesn’t molt and instead pupates so it is immortal unless it is attacked during pupation and it instinctually goes to areas that are filled to twice it’s full height with water to pupate and it has a string connecting it to a hard surface an is buoyant as the process of disassembling it’s exoskeleton would produce gasses which it would likely use up to reassemble it so that it fits better
In fact, metamorphosis occurs almost always, just at the level of internal organs (development of the mammary glands, development of the ovaries and testes). In fact, one could simply make a larval stage, which differs little from the adult on the outside, but some of the organs are not developed, or there are some other differences. Even the same tyrannosaurs had several stages - in childhood they looked (probably) like small feathered dinosaurs, in adolescence they looked like small tyrannosaurids, and when they grew up they became already full-fledged adult tyrannosaurs. This, if anything, is extremely approximate and simplified. Metamorphosis, in principle, can last a very long time and not occur, as in insects (through molting) or tailless amphibians (by very rapid restructuring of the body), but, for example, be stretched for a long time , as a metamorphosis of the same tailed amphibians (everything is so cool there that there are even axolotls that, even without the end of metamorphosis, pass from a legless larva to, in fact, an axolotl, which looks like something in between an adult ambistoma and the original larva). By the way, neoteny is a very interesting mechanic, I think. Especially if this neoteny depends on environmental conditions, and if they change dramatically, metamorphosis occurs. If we consider puberty as a metamorphosis (which makes sense, since the final metamorphosis is needed so that the animal can proceed to reproduction), it is generally stretched over several years, while the changes occur smoothly. As for behavior, you can simply make your own behavior for each stage of development and add a parameter that starts the transition to the next stage (age or environmental conditions). Look like that’s it
First: Should Thrive require a minimum number of castes based on parts/abilities, and if so based on what how? For example: Egg Laying, Sexual Reproduction, a Pupa Stage, and Gender could increase the minimum needed and Amniotic Fluid could decrease it.
Second: Sub Castes. Life Stages, Gender, Eusocial. Should these different caste types be distinguished or should they all just be “Castes”? Should there be more categories? Less?
Thoughts and opinions?
Edit: Perhaps a rephrase. Should evolving to Lay Eggs require the creature to develop Metamorphosis and/or Ontogenesis? Should Sexual Reproduction require a creature to have a Pre Sexual Maturity and Post Sexual Maturity stages? Should having both require, say, Pre Metamorphosis, Post Metamorphosis/Pre Sexual Maturity, and Post Sexual Maturity as a 3 or more stage requirement? Would evolving Amniotic Fluid allow you to no longer need a Pre Metamorphosis stage, and therefore be incompatible with gaining a Pupa stage? Should have multiple Genders require have a set for every stage or could the young of your species be born all uni-gender and divide into different Genders in a later stage in life?
Are Gender and Eusocial different enough to be distinct categories? Is their a category I missed?
Is this different enough I should have created a separate Topic?
why not, though? If they are very related concepts, we should use the same word to describe it. And the game’s code should treat them as the same type of thing.
I haven’t thought of this before, but… What is it with insects and metamorphosing? Why do they do it, but not mammals? Is it because they have an exoskeleton? That they have to shed it anyway, so they might as well “change a lot” during one of the sheddings?
And why doesn’t environmental protection incentivise the same type of process as the protection that you carry around you? Why won’t bears go hibernating in a cave, and come out as a bear with an extra leg or something like that?
What does metamorphosis even mean?
Does it mean the same thing as growth? That happens fast?
We’ve established that young t-rex’es and adult t-rex’es fill different niches and that makes them different. They differ so much in size, which is why they should be considered different casts.
Are eggs, metamorphosis? Is pregnancy metamorphosis?
When a frog leaves eggs on water, it does broadcast spawning, so it is a single celled egg. The creature has to grow up. And look very different when it does so.
But when a reptile does it, it leaves a multicellular egg. We all start life unicellular. Because sperm and egg has to be unicellular. What the reptile does, is that it hibernates during that stage of life. It doesn’t have to go around eating during that. But the frog does.
So I’d say tailed amphibian metamorphosis isn’t “proper” metamorphosis. We have tails too. We shed them too. It is such a superficial similarity. Frogs losing their tail and butterflies gaining their wings shouldn’t be considered “the same phenomenon” and called metamorphosis. You even said it happens slowly (“stretched for a long time”). It should only be considered metamorphosis proper if the creature is hibernating when a change is ocurring.
And the game doesn’t have to take into account what happens during hibernation.
Egglaying is a special type of metamorphosis. Normally, metamorphosis, as in coccoons, merges two stages of life that look very different than each other. The eggs would also be associated with a jump to a future time, but it would merge the “newlyborn” state with a state so early that the game doesn’t have to simulate it. Unless you’re something like a kangaroo and you leave your mom’s pouch and take a ride outside and then return back. But there wouldn’t be a reason to have that. Unless, you were controlling the mother, and could decide when to ditch her
In the unicellular stage, we control the cell. In the multicellular stage, we should also start with a cell. If we do sexual reproduction. And why shouldn’t we? It should be default. Anyway, I don’t know if these things already happen. Haven’t played the game for a long time.
If we play a species like a frog, we should start out as a cell and play possibly different lifestyles, as we grow into the final lifeform, interacting with all the species in that patch along the way, belonging to all sizes. Tbh, that would be so cool. And you could see the organelles you didn’t add to yourself and would take too long to evolve.
When we advance into reptile level, there should be an upgrade in the “reproduction” tab, that allows you to have multicellular eggs, so, you put the glucose and protein clouds next to the cell, it has infinite food glitch, you don’t have to play as it anymore. Its survival is guarenteed.
So you would start off from a later developmental stage. But you may still have to fill different niches when growing up if your t-rex isn’t dropping very large eggs. It should be customisable. How many “size niches” you want to fill? You want to have the extra cost to start very late like the kiwi bird?
And the niches shouldn’t be strictly defined. Because there is a continious change between the sizes. You’re a very small t-rex, but you take down prey that the teen t-rex’es take down? Good for you.
Coccoon metamorphosis would be the same thing as eggs. You would enter an egg, or should I say, create one, and then exit it as a grown up individual. The two designs aren’t equal alternatives. They aren’t horisontal. They should be presented vertically on top of each other. “Reproduction” and “metamorphosis” and “stages of life, development” should be the same tab. You should view the creature you designed, from unicellular till adulthood. If you have eggs, you can ignore adapting the earlier versions. That could be greyed out.
Here is a caviat, if you can choose asexual reproduction, or how many cycles of meiosis and recombination you do, that “genetic reproduction” should be seperate from “developmental reproduction”. Developmental reproduction should be grouped with stages of life.
Why did the trilobites went extinct? It’s because of their exoskeleton, right?
So, if I make a hypothesis that insects metamorphise and bears don’t because insects can survive hibernation in their tank armors but bears are more susceptable to predators because of their soft skin, it wouldn’t be a very good hypothesis, right? You are susceptable no matter what. Actually, are there caves in underwater?
Anyways, I am very confused. I think I couldn’t find two good examples that I could compare. So, alongside the static armour hypothesis, let me make another hypothesis. Wings.
You wouldn’t want to have half a wing, right? It would be useless. It would lower your fitness when you’re in your younger flightless niche. So you would want to store some food, and jump directly from no wings to yes wings fully developed wings.
Almost all insects have wings. And some of them metamorphise. Most birds have wings for flight but none of them metamorphise. But also, no bird lives like a worm on its youth. They either go fully terrestrial, or they look after their young until they can fly. So maybe, if there were birds that didn’t look after their young but still had to fly in their adulthood to migrate, they would chose the option to metamorphise?
Anyways, I’ve given you thought candies. Maybe one of the ideas is right.
Now, let’s discuss that other topic. Castes. When you grow up, you take on very different shapes. But what if you had more than one option? You could end up on a different end point in your life trajectory?
Thats what the bees do. You eat the royal honey, you become the queen. Peasent food? Servant. These should be placed horizontally on the reproduction / metamorphosis / developmental stages/ biologic castes tab on the organism editor. And it should be unlocked after eusociality. Because why have more than one type of organism if you control only one of them?
First, in the broadest sense, Metamorphosis is defined by the process by which an animal undergoes normal physical or behavioral change after birth. In a more strict sense, it is the change from larval state to young adult state, which it is my understanding in most species happens in a relatively short period of time. The first definition includes physically, mentally, and sexually maturing, as well as growth in general. The second definition only includes certain aspects of physically maturing and nothing else.
Under the second definition, most animals from Sponges to Amphibians undergo rapid physical metamorphosis. Most descendants of the Amniote (Mammals, Reptiles, Dinosaurs, and Birds), as well as a few frogs (most from the genus Callulina) and insects (Mayflies, Springtails, and Ametabolous Insects (primitive wingless insects in the orders Archaeognatha and Zygentoma)), instead undergo Direct Development, either hatching or live birthing juveniles (young frog on your chart).
One of three defining traits of the amniote is “Shelled Eggs” filled with amniotic fluid. Placental Mammals evolved for their eggs not to be laid at all, but to grow in their womb, which is also filled with amniotic fluid. This amniotic fluid feeds and nourishes the embryo (larva), which undergoes a process very similar to Metamorphosis, but is not called Metamorphosis, as Metamorphosis is defined as happening AFTER hatching/birth. A notable exception to this is Marsupials, like Kangaroos, whom are all born very underdeveloped by amniotic standards, and spend time continuing to develop in their mother’s pouch.
While Metamorphosis (by the stricter second definition) takes many forms, some insects undergo what is known as “Complete Metamorphosis”, and have a stage in between larval and adult known as pupa. The specifics of this stage vary. Most insects “hibernate” during this period, but mosquitoes don’t. Some, like butterflies and moths, encase themselves in a cocoon or chrysalis, and others, like bees and ants, simply find an out of the way place to lay dormant. A few flies actually have a special molting phase that acts like a cocoon, though is scientifically classified as something else due to how it is made.
In a manner of speaking, cocooning then is a multi-piece evolution with multiple possible upgrades. First, having a Sessile Pupa Stage. Then, either the ability to encase oneself in a Cocoon, Chrysalis, Puparium, or similar shell, or to not be sessile during this time. Then, if you go the encasement route, the possibility of dormancy (delaying when you come out until external conditions are better). And of course, to my original question, if one does not have a larval state (direct development), could one have a state that is defined as being between larval and adult (pupa)? I think not.
As for bears, despite them being the face of hibernating mammals, scientists argue about whether or not they truly hibernate. Hibernation is defined as seasonal heterothermy characterized by low body-temperature, slow breathing and heart-rate, and low metabolic rate. Bears temperatures drop tremendously less than other animals (dropping 3-5 degrees compared to dropping 32 degrees or more).
As far as starting as a sessile single celled egg or playing through the cocoon stage, I believe the following:
If the mother has multiple liters of children, you should be able to pick which generation you become your own child.
If the abandons her young, you should need to have an idea of whether or not something found and ate the eggs or young hatchlings. This could mean playing the sessile egg, but not necessarily.
If the child is born underdeveloped (such as Marsupials), you should have the choice to play the mother raising the child for a time before switching. The ability to switch between mother and child would certainly be interesting, but I think just not being stuck as a baby that cannot walk or feed itself would be acceptable.
If creating a cocoon or hibernating, the question of dos something else interact with your cocoon or enters your environment is important, and may hinder speeding up time.
Sexual reproduction is by far the most effective and widely spread means of reproduction, but making it “Default” would take away from the game. Although, aside from evolving Parthenogenesis (an evolution of sexual reproduction in which normally sexually reproducing creatures having an asexual clone litter in times when a mate cannot be found), I am unaware of means of macroscopic animal reproduction other than sexual exist past the ability of sponges, flat worms, annelids, and sea stars (all relatively simple organisms) to use fragmentation.
The question of how many “size niches” one should have is a good question. The type I was hoping to get a good discussion about. The option of evolving to have fewer size niches, as your listed example of the Kiwi, is a great optional evolutionary idea.
I like your idea about “Reproduction” and “Stages of Life (including Metamorphosis)” being vertical, while other abilities, like “Biotic Castes (like but not necessarily limited to Eusocial) being horizontal. It makes a lot of sense.
As far as wings are concerned, the question of Metamorphosing creatures not having half wings is a good point. How does one define how much a creature can or can’t change in one generation of Metamorphosis? Or for that matter, how different one Biotic Caste can be from another?
I would love to hear more opinions on any of these as far as how Castes and related adaptations should be organized (what should be vertical or horizontal), what kind of minimum (or maximum) stages should which kinds of adaptations require, or other related opinions about developmental stage and how adaptations should/would affect them.
Do you mean like you’re playing as the mother organism and then switch to a child or do you spawn straight from an editor session?
As if when you spawn from the editor you can just get “spawnkilled”?
An alternative idea: In such a scenario, in order to progress into the editor, you’d need to first raise your child until they can continue living without your help. Then after you exit the editor you spawn as a young adult.
Perhaps when some other organism interacts with your “more dormant” form, the time just slows down to a playable speed?
I think the egg should hatch, then you should get the choice, switch to the baby or keep playing as the parent. If you choose not to immediately switch, you should have the option to switch later. However, while this might work well enough for a parent that raises a child, for one that runs off and doesn’t see whether or not their young make it, some sort of notification of the most recent broods status might be in order.
It’s a question of "Should you be able to switch back and forth, or, once you switch to the new generation, should their be no going back? "
That could possibly work, although speeding up time in general has been declared “difficult” on a few other topics. Sessile organisms, as well as cocooning and hibernating organisms, may just need patience. We will see I guess. The point was, I don’t think that time should simply be skipped, because who knows what might stumble on you.
Aren’t you supposed to play as a single organism between editor cycles? If so you’d stay the parent but have the option to enter the editor unlocked, and could keep playing as the parent until you die. Perhaps ending up raising more children would yield some sort of a bonus to the player?
(I understand this as you playing until you get to reproduce and then this choice)
I would think protect the egg until it hatches, then have the option to enter the editor as it hatches, or wait and enter at a later batch. You would then play the generation you entered the editor for. Except, you might want an option to wait until that generation has grown up a bit. Or possibly even switch between for a limited amount of time. I would think once the chosen younger generation has reached a certain development phase, you would be locked into it, but a window to keep switching when it is still early development would be interesting, as would the option to wait a few broods before entering the editor.
Edit Also, raising more children would benefit your total population growth.
You would enter the editor, then have the option when you exit to return to the playing the previous generation for a bit, letting the generation you just edited grow to a later stage before officially taking it over.
Or perhaps you could only edit later stages of the multi-staged organism, so if you wait until it is a young adult to transfer, you could only edit the adult stage, assuming you have multiple defined stages.
This would mean that the parent is the old version of a now updated species. While weird, considering how player progress is transferred between playing sessions, I’d guess this is a good solution atleast as of the current design shape of Thrive.
