Multicellular and Macroscopic and Trophic Lineages

Consider this:

So, I understand that, at some point, the idea is that, due to differences in timescale, 1 species evolving to the next stage, say from Macroscopic to Aware, would lock other creatures out of being able to make that jump. However, given that Animals, Plants, and Fungi all evolved to macroscopic separately, and the sheer number of times life evolved to multicellular, I would like to propose that the transition from microbes to multicellular to macroscopic be handled a little differently than later stages will be.

First, I believe that the timescale difference for microscopic and multicellular should be reconsidered/removed, and that perhaps there should not be a limit on the amount of microscopic organisms that can become multicellular, or, perhaps, there should be a large number of available “lineage” slots to compete for. Putting aside weather or not my suggestions for AI and Time Limit Difficulty Settings gets used, it makes little sense to have the first creature to reach Multicellular lock others from reaching it when so many groups evolved to Multicellular multiple times, and it especially doesn’t make sense for a plant reaching Multicellular to make it so that animals can’t evolve.

Second, I think that when the transition from Multicellular to Macroscopic occurs, different trophs/miches should each become the progenitor of different Macroscopic Trophic Lineages. To use Earth as an example, there could be 2 Photosynthesis Lineages (Green Algae and Land Plants) and 2 Heterotroph Lineages (Fungi (digest food outside there body) and Animals (digest food inside there body)) (this is, of course, until in some distant future someone implements a difference between red, brown, and green photosynthesis and we need more lineages). To be fair to life and the possibilities of Thrive, each troph could have its own Trophic Lineage slot or two (the differences in how Fungi and Animals digest things could be considered different trophs (Fungi’s form of heterotrophy is also called being lysotrophic or saprotrophic), with something like “Energy Production” being a possible roadblock that prevents less effective Multicellular organisms being able to fill there potential Macroscopic slot/s (that is the reason against Plant Civs right?).

Basically, at the time the player, or on harder AI difficulty settings the first species within their “Trophic Lineage”, first makes the transition to Macroscopic, every Lineage of Multicellular organisms could be checked to see if they have a potential candidate or two, too also transition to Macroscopic as the progenitors or their respective new Macroscopic Trophic Lineages. It would be expected that many potential Lineages would not have a worthy candidate, though potentially they could in some games depending on how that particular game went.

One thing of note, depending on how many Trophic Lineage slots were available, it would be a good idea to take measures against a multitroph taking multiple Trophic Lineage slots. That would defeat the purpose and also likely cause problems further down the line when they were less likely to be able to Awaken. One possible suggestion would be to have a “priority list”, from least likely to succeed to most, and check the multitroph for the highest priority not yet filled, specifically plugging that Lineage and leaving the others open to worthy specialists. Alternatively, you could just make slots for every combination a Single, Double, Triple, Quadruple, Quintuple, or Sextuple troph possible, but . . . I think just assigning a multitroph one Trophic Lineage and ensuring it is not in multiple slots would be easier. I would recommend Photosynthesizers be second group from the bottom (so if there is a Photothermochemotroph it will not block the more likely to succeed pure Phototroph) and Heterotrophs last (so a Photoheterotroph does not lock them out).

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Would there also be extra slots for niches like chemolithoautotrophy, radiosynthesis and thermosynthesis for potential macroscopic candidates?

One would then be present between multicellular and macroscopic, right?

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Great ideas, but I can immediately see this becoming an issue in Easy mode. On Normal and Hard modes, the default AI mutation rate is high enough that AI Eukaryotes emerge multiple times. I do not normally see Eukaryotes emerge on Easy mode, let alone multiple times, but I will need to check if this is still the case with 0.8.3.0. Either the default AI mutation rate would need to be increased for Easy mode in order to create enough AI Eukaryote precursors for AI Multicellularity, or the game needs to create AI Eukaryote precursor separate from the player if they do not emerge naturally. The latter point would probably also be applicable for AI mutation rates used in Custom Difficulty Settings.

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Or just tweak the autoevo to like eukaryotes more so that they at least branch off from you more frequently and live.

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Couldn’t this occur just from having miches that can be best filled by multicellular species? I don’t think we need a separate slot system for this.

But I do agree that in principle we want for example a plant-like multicellullar lineage to arise before or after your own “animal” achieves that.

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How would timescales be removed? Do we just remove the mechanic of planet time passing alltogether?

The timescale is not the primary purpose, but just an effect that we are representing a realistic amount of time to pass between major microbe generations (with the planned duration of the microbe stage roughly matching how long it took on Earth).

So I say we must keep time passing as the player goes through editor cycles. As the player advances in the game the cycles must become shorter as life evolved faster on Earth after it got properly going. Thus earlier stage species must be given less and less mutation potential as the timescale (due to the way time passes for the player species) changes.

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I think poodelicus meant that the timescale for microbe and multicellular should be the same, not removed.

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I thought Multicellular with have less time frames per turn?

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That was just poodelicuses suggestion, and Hhyyrylainen seems to have just stated against that proposal.

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Yes and Yes

Prokaryotes have evolved Multicellular on Earth as well.

I meant perhaps that Microscopic and Multicellular should move at the same rate and it should not become shorter/faster until becoming Macroscopic. To keep mutation potential the same in Microscopic and Multicellular, since Multicellular evolved so many separate times on Earth.

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How many times did “macroscopy” evolve meanwhile? Would that be like all eukaryotic multicellular groups?

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On Earth, at least 6 times, but that required 3 types of Photosynthesis. I am not sure what distinguishes Macroscopic Green Algae from Land Plants, but 3 different photosynthyzing colors of Algae, Land Plants, Animals, and Fungus, though Fungus in not trophically represented in Thrive yet. Using 1 color Photosynthesis, that was 2 Photo and 2 Hetero Lineages, assuming Fungi gets added. I presume on the right planets, other things that did not make it that far on Earth could make that jump, even if on most world settings they usually fail to meet whatever criteria was set.

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So perhaps a smaller version of what you suggested could be used to determine what multicellulars get to become macroscopics?

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Wouldn’t this mean that there needs to be a way for single-celled Prokaryotes to combine together, either with a biofilm-like extra-cellular matrix, adhesion pili, and/or a different behavioral inclination towards becoming groups (gregariousness)?

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If they did, there would probably need to be a way to limit it so that multicellular prokaryotes were rare/not viable for macroscopic. Though the nucleus bonuses might be enough to manage that on its own. Assuming “energy production” is needed to become macroscopic/have the top miche, the better organellas not being available without the nucleus could be a decent enough limiting factor for multicellular prokaryotes.

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I’m too lazy to check right now, but wasn’t it the case on Earth that it took a really long time for multicellularity to evolve, but when it did it took almost no time to reach large macroscopic creatures? So to be realistic the timescale has to shorten when the player reaches multicellular.

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To be fair, it takes way fewer generations to go from Multicellular to Macroscopic than it does to go from Microscopic to Multicellular (at least the way I play). Though, to be equally fair, the Multicellular generations seem to take longer.

The main point of the first half is that I think Microbes should not have a reduced evolution rate when in Multicellular since Multicellular, unlike some later steps upward, evolved so many times. I think microbes should be given the chance to do that. This would also help avoid the possibility that the first Multicellular Plant doesn’t lock out Multicellular Animals from being a thing or vice versa. I perfectly understand only one Genus reaching Awakening, and before that only one sub-lineage (in this case Bilaterians) reaching Aware (though some might argue about Amazon Rainforest trees group transpotioning to create rain storms is a form of awareness). I just wonder if, given that so many unrelated groups evolved to Multicellular on Earth, and a handful of unrelated evolved to Macroscopic separately, that maybe those two transitions should be handled a little differently than the realistically stricter later stage transitions.

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I mean, a similar situation might happen with society stage as civs would emerge not just where your tribe happened to call home but on far away lands too quite possibly.

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I am all for multiple tribes on different continents making it to society stage. They would still most likely have evolved from a common “first awakened” ancestor though. Also, that might require tricky timing where they both happen to evolve in the same generation. When looking a Multicellularity, and subsequently Macroscopy, the common ancestor is MUCH farther back, and possibly in different generations, though I am not sure about the second part.

Maybe, when the first multicellular creature is detected, the game could just force evolve several groups to Multicellular all at once and see what survives a generation? It would still be several unrelated lineages.

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That could work I suppose. Would those species be selected at random (having binding agent of course)?

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