well it seems this thread was unlocked so, no but i will put the prompt thing i made here.
since there are definitely a lot of problems with actually getting a space whale into space, lets figure out how to make a smaller space organism, like space fungi, space moss, space porpoises, space ants, etc. and whether or not they would survive or even be able to get there in the first place
questions for people making the space organisms
first and most important question: how does it keep its internal pressure high enough to survive the vacuum of space
second question: how does it reproduce
third question: how much gaseous waste does it produce and does it have any symbiotes to recycle it
fourth question: how did it get into space
fifth question: how much heat does it produce and how does it deal with said heat
sixth question: how does it get energy and how does it get rid of waste that it canât recycle
seventh question: how does it get water and carbon
eight question: what is its role in its ecosystem
ninth question: how does it obtain phosphorus, nitrogen, hydrogen, and everything else it needs to grow
tenth question: how does it keep its children from de-orbiting and if it is motile how does it keep itself in orbit
eleventh question: how does it keep its DNA, proteins, RNA, and enzymes safe from the light producing stellar body its planet/moon orbits directly or indirectly
twelfth question: how does it protect itself from its methods of moving that donât require touching something or being in an atmosphere
thirteenth question: how does it defend itself from extinction
fourteenth question: did you include credible sources
instructions for finding whether or not the argument is reasonable
find and shoot down any closed circular reasoning
check the sources and make sure they really are credible and a source for the information used
make sure nothing is physically, chemically, or thermodynamically impossible
make sure there is nothing at the cellular, chemical, or structural levels that has not yet been proven possible
make sure it would not get deleted if it was in the science category and space whale talk didnât regularly get so heated that it got banned everywhere thatâs not an environment with specific people not allowed in
do not let this devolve into an uncivilized heated argument again
Theyâve been showing up recently. Problematically, they are different from the usual spam in that it is not possible to tell if a real human would never make such a post.
It would have a tough skin/epithelium covering its body to maintain pressure. This could be similar to the inner tissue of bladderworts, though it would likely be more stable as it is in tension and would not have to deal with changes in pressure differential. Certain structures (i.e. mouths or cloacas) may be more similar to the bladderwortâs arrangement of an interior hollow space, but it is clear from reality that such organs can survive
It would release many eggs/fragments as a form of broadcast spawning. Instead of sexual reproduction, they would reproduce asexually and absorp DNA from other sources, similarly to Bdelloid rotifers
If its synthesis and respiration cycles are properly balanced, then it shouldnât have any waste in the strict sense. In reality we see both organisms that synthesise more matter than they respire, and those that respire more than they synthesise, so a balance isnât unreasonable
It evolved on a large moon that fell into its planet and collapsed into a ring system
It wouldnât need to produce much more heat than a plant or maybe a primitive insect. What little heat it does make could be lost via radiator-limbs that are shielded from the sun by its leaves
It would be photosynthetic and get its energy from the sun. There wouldnât be any waste it couldnât recycle: Unlike planetary life, it is adapted specifically for recycling its products as it cannot easily regain those elements
Some bacteria can secrete cell walls made out of quartz, which just so happens to be a rather good material to make electrets out of. There are also a few microbes capable of generating a small amount of electricity, which could allow for materials to be electrically polarised. Itâs reasonable that, if the secretory system is complex enough, it could secrete a chunk of electretic quartz. If this can be achieved, then such an organ could be used to draw in dust and other materials which have an electric charge
Producer
See question 7
It makes a lot of children so that at least a few are likely to find an orbit
It would have special DNA repair mechanisms similar to Deinococcus radiodurans or other dessication-resistant organisms
a thick glass shell with a similar composition to a prince rupertâs dropwith no tail to prevent gas loss and destruction by micrometeorites and other space debris but if it is hit too hard by something too big it goes boom
it has a lidded hole in said shell that it uses for internal fertilization and excreting their young, the lid is significantly less durable than the rest of the shell due to less and the hole contains a limb to facilitate gamete exchange that doesnât involve rapid decompression
it produces a lot of CO2 that is sent to bulb like structures at the base of its âleavesâ to be used as a carbon source for electrosynthesis which is the use of electricity by cells to make useful compounds(in this case glucose through a modified form of RuBisCO that uses electricity directly and through nanowires instead of indirectly and through energy molecules, like, for example, ATP in thrive once carbon fixation becomes its own process in it), all its other gaseous waste is recycled in the digestive tract by endosymbiotic relatives of it that its last common ancestor with them is the space diatom-dinoflagellate-amoeba thing
it got into space by getting yote by a dominant species into orbit as an experiment to test a hypothesis about their biological knowledge, that species ended itself the way humanity almost has several times in the last few decades, that species also modified it from their analogue of a diatom to be comparable to a cross between a vacuum capable amoeba, a dinoflagellate, and a really big diatom with holes in each face and a contractile gas bladder before yeeting it up there with a really strong spin yeeter
not nearly as much as an earth animal its size would, it produces about as much heat per second as an elephant and it just uses leaves modified to have fluid circulation to get rid of it when needed
the leaves the carbon fixation bulbs are at the base of extend through the shell and can be shed and often are due to damage such as being hit by a large rock and snapped off, instead of being the site of carbon fixation like in most earth photosynthesizers, the leaves on this creature are merely to acquire energy to make glucose via the same mechanisms as solar panels, the leaves grow by first making their own prince rupertâs glass(the material the rest of the shell is made of) shells with a single, extremely large, cell that uses the same energy mechanisms as the bulb and then making the semiconductors required for a photodiode and turning them into sheets along the inside of the shell until the leaf has no room left for the leaf making cell and the leaf is connected to the bulb, when that happens the cell retreats back into the bulb until the leaf next needs to be regrown. to get rid of waste it canât recycle it simply makes a leaf using a bulb that canât properly connect to the leaf and is always located on the back near the thruster and shoves the waste in there since most waste it canât recycle is toxic metals like lead, fluorine, and other toxic metals that canât be used to make nanowires or radioactive filaments in the leaves, after that the waste leaf is shed as if it were damaged.
if it can encounter comets frequently enough it simply catches them and eats them by engulfing them with a cell specifically for engulfing prey(mostly rocks) or if it canât it makes root-like things from a specialized bulb located on the underbelly that contains several extremely long vascularized strings with multiple chambers for pumping blood to prevent blood going down and not coming back up, skin that gets thinner as the atmosphere gets thicker, and a form of photosynthesis more akin to what you see on earth plants that get pulled out when the skin over the end of the bulb gets eaten due to malnutrition gets ejected into the atmosphere of the planet below. this only happens before maturity is reached or when dehydrated, with the exception of repairing wounds and growing new leaves
motile large tanky rock eating autotroph
eating asteroids, or occasionally, eating the corpses and leaves of members of its own species
it produces hydrogen gas and oxygen gas via electrolysis and separates them into two bladders that connect at the tail end of the organism where they get ignited with a spark as they exit, it also yeets its children once they grow their first shell by using their rock eating cell as a throwing appendage
high melanin density in the tissue directly under the shell, the energy from this is used for carbon fixation to produce necessary amino acids and vitamins after being turned into glucose through thermosynthesis before the excess heat is shed through vascularized leaves, the melanin makes their âskinâ below their shells pitch black because of the density but this is caused by a need to use camouflage to evade predation from things that can punch hard enough to break their shells and have no regard for their own limbs, not light intensity.
not letting the gasses that are highly explosive together mix outside the explosion chamber and having one way valves in said explosion chamber to prevent anything going the wrong way
camouflage against the vacuum of space, energy storage for the side of the orbit where there is no light, extremely durable shell, reproduction, yeeting hot gas out its back end to increase its velocity, yeeting sufficiently developed children to give them a higher orbit and speed, water absorption tendrils that go down into the atmosphere and are shed when no longer needed, etc.
Weâve actually shown it is possible. Thereâs been tests with tardigrades, and itâs been found that in their dormant state, they can survive in space, which lends a ton of feasibility to an evolved panspermia option at least. And a few generations in space showed they could make it through the evolutionary bottleneck. So not only are animals living in open space not only possible, itâs a thing that has happened. After that, itâs just a matter of evolutionary selection over thousands of years until you get something that outright survives off of starlight, cosmic rays (some kind of super-chlorophyll) , and space dust.
Heck, we could probably genetically engineer tardigrades and lichen together, if money and projects were so inclined, to make plants that would grow on a targeted barren asteroid.
But without genetic engineering, and following the normal principles of evolution, would it develop? Even with the tardigrades example, they simply remain dormant, and they canât breed (and hence evolve) in a dormant state. They survive, but donât Thrive.
Anyway, if you wish to continue these discussions, you should probably review what has already been discussed in that linked thread and continue the discussion there.
they would survive and be able to breed if they were sent to a water planet and they would merely need to have a few thousand sent to each planet assuming absolutely everything goes right, they get dehydrated first, they have a parachute to make sure they donât obliterate themselves with adiabatic compression, the water is actually water and not toxic, they produce their own oxygen, etc. but they definitely canât live in space, survive in a state of biological inactivity? yes, reproduce? definitely not.
The tardigrade proves evolving to survive in a space environment is possible (it may be dormant and inert until reaching the right target, but it is possible). This is the crack in the wall through which the rest of the evolutionary process can take it. Because if something with a double-sided membrane can do it, something with a rigid membrane might be able to, in other words, plant life. We have yet to test all plant life to see how it survives in a vaccume, but considering seeds can be freeze dried and used later, itâs very likely they can survive the vaccum of space nearly as well or even as well as a tardigrade can. At this point, the main concerns are light (which is available in orbit), air, and nutrients.
For air, an internal air sac with an internal biome could potentially meet this need. That just leaves nutrients. Nutrient-wise, the surface of the Moon isnât that far off from the rock fields in Iceland, which are growing lichen.
So, lichen with an internal biome, and you have the start a space-living-capable plant species. If that species evolved on a moon around a gas giant, and has an impact, some could survive, and then you have it evolving in an asteroid field. Flora, in turn, gives opportunity for fauna.
Now it traveling between solar systems? Thatâd be unlikely.Mainly just do to low probably of encountering more resources in the deep vastness of empty space. In truth, this would be a very unlikely evolution (though not impossible), and if it did happen, it would likely be limited to a single asteroid field. It wouldnât have the maneuverability to really navigate between planetary bodies, let alone celestial bodies.
Honestly, the more I think about it, even if space whales that fed on lichen are theoretically possible, I donât see how they could get from that state to an actually interstellar species. Although advanced construction methods are available in zero-g in the properly controlled environments, they just wouldnât have the ability to jump multiple technical hurdles needed to reach advanced technology once they reached this point.
Alright, how the heck would sentient life form without a ground to stand on? I have no idea. Maybe it starts out as a floating bacteria that slowly clusters together then learns to form a sphere and trap air, then learn to produce hydrogen so that is will float into less competitive layers of clouds, then some other creatures also evolved to rise or sink by controlling the buoyancy of their cells so they can hunt the ones that can float then the ones that can float evolve to be bigger to minimize the damage to them, and from there I donât know.
Fair, which is why I said sentient life, though that does make me wonder if there are any possible biological replacements for metal or even just land that could be considered. Maybe a large enough plant-like life form evolves that creatures can live on it. Maybe a creature evolves a light sturdy shell that can be used for tools to form small huts or structures.
floating trees with extremely unreactive compounds making up their cell walls could be used as a replacement for solid, non-flammable ground. for that specific scenario itâs best to have some fluorine in the atmosphere so things like PTFE can be made. though if thereâs a constant, strong upwards flow of air in an area, bits of sand that are created by silicon precipitating because they evaporated off a meteor could stay floating long enough to get stuck to or in an organism, in which case silica walled organisms would be possible.
To progress, metal is not needed, mearly as engine to become industrial. Therefore, shells from other creatures, along with other solid, inflatable organic materials can be used with flammable materials can be used to make engines.
For the formation of sentient life, it would be possible, as the nearly level required would be possible with creatures floating in habitable areas of the gas giants. Tool use would also be possible, but it would be difficult to get the resources for the tools, with there being no solid ground.
Seeing as you started talking about floating bacteria, I felt like this is exactly the type of discussion that was already in the space whales thread. And you didnât have any scientific references in your post so it didnât qualify to be a separate thread in Science! category.
There are no hydrothermal vents or warm little ponds. So perhaps there canât be native life.
How do they get water?
A cell membrane is like a soap bubble and the cytoplasm is made from water. Can air filled bubbles make up a cell? Can floating enzymes catalyze reactions happening in air bubbles? Probably not. So cells would need to exist in liquid water aerosols in the gas giant atmospheres. The size of the water droplets limit how many microbes can exist in them and how big they can get. The microbes would also not be able to actively decide where to move in the atmosphere.
How do they stay afloat?
Lets imagine that cells appeared and they decided to become multicellular. How would they move around?
They could construct balloons so that they donât require air currents to in order to stay in the air. But gas giant atmospheres are already made from hydrogen and helium. Making buoyant structures there is extremely hard. They would need to create a gas that has a higher hydrogen percentage than their surroundings. And this would constitude a majority of their volume and mass. They would be made mostly from skin and they would have very little room for organs.
There canât be predator prey relationships. Imagine you are a predator, you canât eat another creature because this would make you heavier and you would sink to a depth you probably canât survive in. Youâd need to steal the gas of a creature before consuming their biomass, your balloon parts would also need to be very streachy to accomodate for that sudden expansion. But your prey wouldnât want to be preyed on, if it notices it is dying it would release its gas itself and kill you both, or make you drop its body, because even if this doesnât help it survive, this discourages heterotropy in general and makes its relatives survive. Without predator prey relationships there wouldnât be complex life, they wouldnât have a cambrien explosion.
What is the energy source?
There are no hydrothermal vents so they would need to do photosynthesis or thermosynthesis.
We already have water clouds on earth, which receive sunlight and their temperature can change throughout the day. But this didnât result in the evolution of air whales. Perhaps building a large hydrogen balloon isnât worthwhile when a bird that can do active flight due to the glucose it gets from the species that live on the surface could just eat you and you wouldnât have the means to resist it. Or maybe since the number of microbes that exist in air is very small, there isnât much evolution going on in there. But there is more atmosphere in gas giants so there could be more microbes.
What about storms and lightnings?
Strong winds can tear up the balloons and the creatures can build up charge due to static electricity and be hit with lightnings which is a rather extreme thing to develop environmental tolerances for. Gas giants do have strong winds, this is a problem for multicellular life.
i imagine both heterotrophic and more advanced autotrophic large multicellular organisms would use a combination of muscle powered flight and hydrogen powered flight since they need to be able to change the downwards force they output to catch prey and stay afloat after eating it (and wing powered flight would drastically decrease the necessary surface area to fly while increasing flight speed), and if that doesnât happen, well, no Cambrian explosion for you i guess, because without that the closest thing to a predator that could realistically happen would be a parasite that steals nutrients from the skin of autotrophs and releases spores to spread.
strong winds can be protected against by having a contractile skin on your hydrogen bladder that you actively control, and having wings that can produce enough thrust to negate the lack of thrust caused by reducing the volume of the baloon, and lightning can be protected against by using metal, silicon, or carbon to harness its power, whether it be for computing or synthesizing chemicals, and since 2 water molecules can be split into 2 H2 molecules and 1 O2 molecule with electricity, iâd imagine a lot of things would abuse that and maybe even intentionally get struck by lightning when theyâre running low on hydrogen, and as a result theyâd also get more than enough oxygen to stop respirating for the next 10 minutes without much consequence (tree-like organisms would probably do that the most and have decentralized floatation systems with the hydrogen bladders having skin full of chloroplasts and probably also some form of blood).
Youâre right, heterotrophs could do that. But autotrophs donât have to use muscle power, they can use their contractile skin to change the volume of their hydrogen bladder and position themselves on their favorite altitude without using any energy. Heterotrophs, if they consume a lot of autotrophs, would eventually get too heavy to do that. Maybe they would enter a âresting phaseâ every time they consume a prey where they donât look for any other prey, instead expand their balloon (double it if the meal was equal in size) and get rid of that new weight by doing one of 2 things
Reproducing by releasing spores. If these small offsprings donât grow parasiticly, they would need to grow up autotrophicly. They can later become heterotrophs or mixotrophs.
Respirating it (anaerobicly) and using that energy to increase its concentrated hydrogen reserves. In this case autotrophs preventing them to get hydrogen wouldnât prevent a heterotrophic lifestyle.
When they have 4 times as much hydrogen as they minimally require, they can also reproduce by budding or sexual budding
Shrinking the balloon doesnât make it more resistant to normal or shear strain that can result when winds apply a force on the baloon. But I guess we canât say if a balloon can survive on the great red spot without doing calculations.