wondering about cooprative relationships with different speices. dont really have a good idea of how it might work, but maybe there could be a sort of menu in the editor and you could select an existing speicese and then choose a type of symbiosis? like wether it would be a parasitic relationship or a benefitial one? ideas?
1 Like
In internal symbiosis, I’d think that instead of a menu in the editor, some sort of special vacuole or storage chamber might be implemented into the editor, and then a species could engulf or absorb with this. All excess nutrients would be given to the engulfed/absorbed species and the now symbiotic species would give all of its excess nutrients to the protecting species. Idk about the other types of symbiosis or parasitism though.
yes, but on a larger scale, consider siphonophores, on a microscopic scale this could work, but for the stake of consistency a menu might work better. take for example the clown fish and sea anemone, or pollinating insects and flowering plants. those types of symbiotic relationships cant really be created by simple engulfing the other creature.
2 Likes
Hi. A lot has been written discussing endosymbiosis (internal symbiosis) on the Development forums. Here’s one thread which includes it: Upgrades, Unlocks, & Endosymbiosis Master Thread - Gameplay - Thrive Development Forum
The idea is essentially that you’ll be able to engulf a species and have it survive inside your cell, eventually turning it into a full organelle. They want there to be a more realistic option, i.e. going through all the steps, and an option for those who aren’t interested in that, or who can’t find a suitable species. This may well involve a menu to select a creature, or a large unlock cost for a brand new, complete organelle. The changing of the symbiont into an organelle will likely involve a separate tab in the editor, where you can change its parts, in the same way as cells in the multicell stage editor now. More complex parasites and such, I don’t think have been much considered by the team.
As far as relationships with other species beyond the microscopic, there is a lot of scope for a range of different forms of interdependence.
Society stage will require having a range of relationships with other societies, and diplomatic options dependent on this. It should involve a society being able to have a symbiotic relation with another, in terms of trade, protection, culture, labour, etc. The stages before this will require some similar elements for determining how specific species interact in order to, for instance, create tribes built around following and hunting buffalo-like creatures, or to create pollinators. The Auto-evo code may include favoured prey info, depending on what model of it they decide to go with. These elements could be extended further to allow for biological symbiosis between species, but that would only be done if developers feel its worth doing.
1 Like
i hope endosymbiosis lite gets released first and then full endosymbiosis and you can choose which one you want to use whenever you gain a possible endosymbiote
1 Like
what do you think the limits for symbiosis would be? how many speices could be involved in a relationship, how many times could you endosymbiosis?
all of them
depends on how much cytoplasm you got
1 Like
I’ve rejected endosymbiosis full due to the extreme implementation difficulty. The only chance it has is to have a really dedicated programmer push out the full feature and deal with the ton of request changes such a large modification of the game is sure to cause.
I was aware that the full version wasn’t going ahead, but is there not still intended to be a process based on engulfing a target first?
1 Like
Likely, but any customization after that is part of the full endosymbiosis concept. Only the unlocking part of an organelle based on engulfing something is part of the endosymbiosis-lite plan, which is on the accepted roadmap.
1 Like
so back to macro species/ non endo symbiosis, how might that work? would you select a species in your patch and choose what kind of symbiotic relationship you (parasitism, communalism, and mutualism?) (not getting into details of parasites). Then in the case of mutualism how would you choose how you benefit? Clownfish gets shelter and the anemone stays clean, or the case of certain tarantulas and small frogs (the frog is protected by the spider and the spiders eggs are keeps safe from smaller bugs that would eat the eggs from the frog), or perhaps a symbiosis between different stages, simply put, beneficial gut bacteria?
how might these things possibly be implemented?
2 Likes
what about ectosymbiosis with a plant that doesn’t have its own vascular system as an animal
1 Like
id considere that to be more like a grapple feature, a creauture or plant might have little suckers that ensure attachment to a certain host, then you would choose a symbiosis type, ticks and barnicluse are good examples, if the creature is dependent(as it it will die quickly without the other, aka cant disattach even for a short time) then you could just choose a “permenent attachment” modification to the body part, like how you can eddit some organells in the game right now. I want to keep this discusion away from endosymbiosis as ive just not seen much on more kinds of symbiosis.
my idea is the ectosymbiosis starts as a parasitic moss on just one animal species that it almost wipes out but a small population with the moss survive and the moss on the ones that survived adapted to not kill its host and to give glucose and oxygen to its host to prevent its own death and the host evolved things to keep the moss in a high CO2 environment to keep the moss producing as much glucose and oxygen as possible, that kind of ectosymbiosis is technically partially endosymbiosis as the moss needs to be partially inside the host to stick(probably with cells that act as structural roots) to be able to form
I want to know how the relationship between insects and flowering plants should be expressed. There are also leguminous plants and Rhizobia, Microflora in the Digestive Tract of animals.
I think that having friendly bacteria in your species gut is unlikely to be explicitly added to the game during development. But I do like the idea of species being randomly absorbed by species which are at a later stage of development. It should be possible, if you develop very slowly, to have other species get far ahead of you, potentially losing the game if you get really far behind. I think it would be really cool to have the possibility of your microscopic species being swallowed by a much larger species, and finding yourself continuing to live inside it. There could be an alternative Game Over message, saying something like,
“So… You’ve Thrived, in your own way. You are now part of a more advanced creature’s digestive system. Your species didn’t manage to become one of the dominant forces on the planet. You didn’t create great artworks, music or literature. You didn’t discover the secrets of the universe… But at least you’re part of something greater. And who knows, you may even reach the stars after all.”
2 Likes
So it has to be mentioned that Ruminantia relies on digestive tract microorganisms. In other words, the symbiosis of Multicellular organism and microorganisms is widespread in nature.
For Multicellular organism, symbiotic evolution may be added, whose prerequisite is that there are corresponding microorganisms that meet the conditions in the environment. For example, root nodules require the presence of microorganisms with nitrogen fixation ability in the current environment.
Can the symbiotic bacteria in a cow be considered a component of the cow apart from its own cells?
edit: For Multicellular organism, considering that few animals have endogenous cellulase (Limnoria quadripunctata), this symbiotic evolution should be a more economical and easy choice than the evolution of endogenous enzymes.
2 Likes
in regards to benefital gut bacteria, i dont know how it might be implemented in an organic way, i could be to simply select/edit a bacteria most similar to what you want it to aid in digestion with. things like external parasites are fairly easy to implement, and i think certain types of symbioses need their own consideration for realistic game introduction. for external parasites i propose you would just attach to a larger critter untill you want to disattach (tiks as example), for mutualistic symbiosis like flowers and bees, i could actually see it happening automatically, as the bee is really just being lured into evidently carrying pollen by the sweet smell of sugar. and then last, commensulism, this would be the barnicle and the whale, the barnicle doesnt harm the whale, but rather the whale gives the benefit of a moving base, this would just be a slight difference from the tik example. more thoughts about mutalism?