Types of Government

[50gens]

@fralegend015

@50gens

A facist democracy can either be a monarchy or a oligarchy

Is a contradiction, I literally could ignore everything else and this phrase would still contradict itself.

It should have been obious that I wasn’t using them in their full traditional meaning. A non facist democracy can be those things too.

Monarchy: There is no infighting.
Oligarchy: There is infighting

@fralegend015

Do you think that bureaucrats always have a saying in the decisions of the ruler? They don’t.

this is how infighting is prevented

@fralegend015

an absolute monarchy is a government in which the monarch has unrestrained control over the three powers of the state.

monarch+bureaucracy (ruling class) has (theoreticly) infinite authority, but in practice, they don’t. They can’t order the peasents to do anything.

@fralegend015

@50gens

An absolute monarchy has never existed in history

First of all, this is completely irrelevant.

I went on that tangent because I reference absolute power 3 sentences later.

@fralegend015

No, quite the contrary, fascism wants to enforce hierarchies, why did you think that fascism is statalist and nationalist?

I didn’t think that all the ideologies that are called facist in real life wanted to abolish hierarchies. I defined a hypotetical word spelled as “facism” that means “abolishing hierarchies”^[1] . I think it is a useful word and it fits the etymology of facism.

@fralegend015

Authoritarianism is a political system characterized by a controlling government and the rejection of democracy, human rights, and political plurality. It involves the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting.

@fralegend015

In authoritarianism there is a clear division between the ruling class and other classes, and the ruling class has absolute powers over the other classes

It just lists things authoriterianism is associated with. Authority just means power and power can be used to maintain or abolish hierarchies.

@fralegend015

An authoritarian state will enforce its hierarchies because that’s literally what the ruling class uses to rule

Lets say that there is a democracy and it keeps being a democracy

If the rulers are elected, it wouldn’t be permenant so there wouldn’t be a ruler class.

If elections stop, the ideology may look exactly like the previous ideology(such as facism) and it could still be popular for the time being but the ones in charge would start to form a ruling class.

@fralegend015

also, fascism is authoritarian, as such it can’t “only exist in democracies”.

“removal of hierarchies” is “uses force”, as such it exists only in “when there is no ruling class that would oppose the removal of hierarchies”

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1. and also different cultures because if people see each other as different their relationships can become hierarchical ↩︎

[hhyyrylainen]

@fralegend015

Use the actual fascism instead of creating an ideology that has beliefs that are both

Yeah, if people talk about a specific ideology using the definition of that is very much required. If people want to talk about authoritarianism with some specific features, then that should be talked about rather than trying to twist an existing well-defined term to mean something it doesn’t.

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@50gens please stop trying to argue about the meanings of words. In Thrive we will go with whatever Wikipedia gives as the definition (or a well known dictionary like Cambridge or what that other big one was I can’t remember right now). And the definitions of terms are not up for debate. You can get back to us if you get Wikipedia to change their page’s definition of fascism.

[ZombieAllstar]

Just wondering if the game will have ideologies in industrial stage.Another question.the game will have capitalism or communism because I want to start a cold war in a alien planet💲vs⚒️

[HexapodPhilosopher (Disguised as a rock, until you get too close...)]

It’ll definitely be possible to have a cold-war-type scenario in Thrive. But the Cold War had basically nothing to do with differing ideologies.

[50gens]

Who wants to go back to cell stage

Explaining Every WACKY Political Ideology (Off-Compass Ideologies)

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

You mean in discussions? Yeah, maybe we should focus on what actually is being developed at the present.

[blackjacksike (Weird FNAF cat)]

@hhyyrylainen

@50gens please stop trying to argue about the meanings of words. In Thrive we will go with whatever Wikipedia gives as the definition (or a well known dictionary like Cambridge or what that other big one was I can’t remember right now). And the definitions of terms are not up for debate. You can get back to us if you get Wikipedia to change their page’s definition of fascism.

Don’t encourage him! Thomas Lockley once added false information on Wikipedia about Japanese history.

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

@blackjacksike

Thomas Lockley

Who’s that? Seems strange that a wikipedia editor would have a known name…

[hhyyrylainen]

If it says disinformation on Wikipedia for like a day or two before it gets reverted, that doesn’t really impact Thrive discussion at all.

[domin2ktr]

The first thing I want to point out is that the political coordinates that many are accustomed to are crap. It is unclear what is “right” and what is “left”, for example, many consider libertarianism to be a “right” ideology, and liberalism to be “left”, but at the same time, libertarianism is much closer ideologically to “left” liberalism than to “right” conservatism. In my opinion, the “triangle” system is much more logical, where ideologies are divided into “liberal”, “reactionary” and “communist”, which are the vertices of the triangle, the ideologies themselves take different positions from the vertices. This system, in my opinion, is much more understandable and truthful.

But even it is essentially meaningless in relation to alien life forms, since it is tailored to the social structure of humans. If we draw an analogy, it would be like using only knowledge of human anatomy to perform an operation on an alien.

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

I guess no matter what it should still be possible to make the modifiers an ideology will exert on an alien country.

[hhyyrylainen]

I’m like 99% sure that exact same thing has been said before on the forums. This topic will go into the penalty box if discussions just start going around in circles here.

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

By the “penalty box” you mean this thread would be closed or something else?

[Deathwake (i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)]

That’s pretty laughable. As a political compass hater, that’s not a replacement. The political compass crushes nuance, a triangle of “normal”, “crazy”, and “usually consider to at least border crazy” makes the system literally black, white, and red. That’s no good.

IMO Thrive should not use human axis or names, for example fascism and libertarianism are bad ones, because both tend to be politically “right”, while their actual ideology has nothing to do with left/right. I’d say the ideologies there are totalism and pro-freedom (the names don’t matter, but you get the idea), both with right wing flavor. Right wing flavor is a human thing. There’s no reason capitalism and tradition should be on the same side. If thrive could make a few axis to vary ideology upon that don’t seem intrinsically human, I.E. for or against: change, war, religion, bias towards the majority, rights for minorities, etc. Then make at least two ends of two axis (or their centers?) randomly cluster, and call that a politcal ideology. Ideological conflicts between large groups sound really fun and rather accurate, but why is it liberals vs conservatives? Communists vs Fascists? The fascists worked with the USSR at the start of the war, and the american parties have swapped at least once, the power is in how arbitrary it was. Just pick “far end of axis x and y, pretending you have no opinion on axis z, and color w” and call it an ideology. Swap them out every century. You get back libertarianism and fascism by taking a one issue ruling policy/group and having them pick a side. If the flavorless anarchists pick the red team (in the US communism and conservatism are both red, it’s confusing) you get libertarians, if the wannabe dictator decides to be red flavored you get, up, Staler, the H tl r-St ll n hybrid, because both the right and the far left are red colored in the US.

Thive is not the place for arguing political terms. I think my system works for that, because unless it randomly decides our real world ideologies by accident, it’ll be a flavor unique to your world. The player could name it, or it could have an autogenerated name, but unless it names a left wing dictatorship Castroism by shear coincidence, it’s a theoretically apolitcal design. Of course, the effectiveness of being on one end of an axis isn’t apolitical, deciding the economic weight of regulating the market vs letting it do whatever isn’t a free choice, but it’s not as bad as having a “be H tl r” button IMO.

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

No matter what, we can be sure that it’ll take lots of time before any ideology system in Thrive is polished enough for a release. It might be no less harder than even planet generation.

[Deathwake (i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)]

Planet generation sounds easier to just get to work and do, yeah.

[hhyyrylainen]

What are you guys thinking in terms of what would be needed here? I think personally that a planet generator is much, much harder because you have to research procedural world generation a bunch before you can get started at all. Whereas a politics system can be done just by picking an initial set of axes and programming gameplay effects depending on the player civ position on each of the axes. That sounds like way, way simpler and easier to approach and get started with. It is most likely the case that things get harder with way more sliders and of course implementing the gameplay ways the player affects the system and how the effects are communicated to the player.

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

Pretty sure the politics system will still be among the harder things to perfect for the strategy stages…

[Deathwake (i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)]

i guess I’m comparing “making a planet generator” with “making a GOOD politics system”, which aren’t comparable statements.

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

How early should it be possible to differentiate political systems? Would it be possible as early as in awakening stage?