Deathwake
(i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)
1009
Humans historically are cooked mammal meat but fish and shellfish we’ve always eaten raw. Plus why is this even relevant? It’s stupid and has nothing to do with anything.
Reminder: we used metal to make everything after 5,000 BC in the old world. (Not necessarily as a building material but as tools and weapons)
90% of people don’t know about metal, hm, wow fellow American, yeh, reminder: European public education teaches basic English words so that’ll only be an issue for Floridians.
Lost information makes bad sources. It’s fine to be human and mess up, but don’t expect to be treated like a genius.
Yeah prolly. It’s surprising how often people ignore that humans can evolve too.
So your stuff doesn’t shatter under stress. Ever try making spindly moving components out of stone? Crack
No. You just have to have a comprehendible counterargument
What about windmills? Or watermills? They’re often pretty belgium in their materials
They do, they just don’t understand the little details of how we got it. Either way, it’s equally unattainable
No, but a lot of people before us have made such components out of wood
Deathwake
(i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)
1012
try making those without metal. specifically gearboxes and large windmills. All the societies i’ve ever heard of that used wind power had metal. metal effects a whole society. pvc doesn’t contain smelted metal but no ones saying that cave people could make any.
oh. well well only people smart enough to deduce you need fire to smelt metal, who can also read a ten second tutorial on how they need to develop a few specific structures to make metal, and are good enough learners to remember what the tutorial said will be able to play. sighh, only the nerdist nerds will ever want to play this (highly scientific, marketed to nerds,) game. so sad.
you know what weirds me out? how many people play subnautica. i mean, im sure most of us arent free-divers, nor submarinests, and i’ve never been to an alien planet, so i shouldnt be able to play that game right?
the player can go into the tech tree and think “well i need metal to beat these guys or mine that stuff so whats the prerequisite?” and just see them.
which components? windmill shafts that attach to incredibly sturdy wooden gearboxes? wooden boats that have wooden steam engines on them? hm, maybe the fact that some components were made out of wood for a time doesnt mean everything can be.
A lot of people have already tried and succeeded, as you can find out with a minimal amount of research
What is the proof? How do we know that advancement is caused by metal, rather than metal being a common symptom of advancement in a fiery animal. Also, why is it so inconceivable that this could be otherwise that we must force it to be so?
Because everyone plays games while reading a tutorial for the next part of the game. And why should we expect a game like Thrive to be winnable without following someone else’s grand plan?
My sanity ran out, @BurgeonBlas is now silenced for a week. If things continue going badly after that as well, I think I’m about ready to close this underwater discussion again, and it will not be opened again until someone makes the full proof from start to finish that underwater civs can advance to the space stage starting from naturally underwater occurring resources.
Deathwake
(i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)
1016
Ah the relief.
so anyways, one last thing:
ah good, correct. i mean assuming we’re both talking about complex games. i have civ 5, and read the bare minimum of any important looking tutorial blurb, and that worked fine, in contrast for super luigi u i just play the goddam game, its a mario title, no one expects a tutorial. we arent in a making a mario game community we’re in a ‘civ 35 with stellaris strapped on top and proceduraly generated ancestor:a humankind odyssey and thrive as it stands rn attached on the bottom’ making community.
good talk, maybe we dont continue in in a week? you see by then i’ll be done with college and won’t have anything to avoid doing by hanging out on the forum (this is a joke i’ll still have people to avoid)
Also I don’t remember any arguments against floating forges very well could someone tell me why they are utterly impossible please?
That’s a little imposible, you know? I think the max level you can reach playing as an underwater Civ is Society Stage, and maybe, gets a little near Industrial (some kind of simple mass production).
This post was made 2 hour before the limit, don’t kill me.
My idea is do it how the Tool Breeders from All Tomorrows did it just breed animals as tools
Deathwake
(i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)
1019
That’s the idea everyone’s been working with but we all try to find holes in it to get past that idea. That’s what this whole thread is. The only person who doesn’t accept that as a premise to be subverted or backed up is burgeon. Of course you think it’s just plain impossible, which I think most of us agree with until a cool and original idea comes into being that we subscribe to until people shoot it down.
Highly impossible. Breeding isn’t a magic wand, animals can’t do everything. Try getting to space on the back of an animal. It really doesn’t work. Even if an animal happened to evolve a non-oxygen reliant propulsion system that was powerful enough to lift it off the surface (a stupidly unlikely idea) the square-cube law prevents them from growing to any size, and the rocket equation jumps on the theoretical critter when it’s down, as does the need to breathe, eat, drink, and refuel. As does the need to use computers to calculate orbits, and telescopes to even know what space is, and microscopes (and electron microscopes) to understand genetics, while engines, metal gearboxes, metal wheels, advanced travel networks, radio communications, and firearms (complicated pile of asterisks involving total war, forced democratization, horse tribes, and martial incentives) are needed to undergo an industrial revolution. I don’t think biotech could be as good at mechanical tech at industrial or transport needs, and you don’t go to space with medical tech. Also the underwater civ in question wouldn’t have CRISPER or anything.
A little bit outdated because a few new ideas have been presented since then, like electric crabs and land suits, but still viable
(I actually have an idea I’m working on right now using aspects of burgeons land suits (more fully explained) and deathwakes floating forges, but I want to refine it a little before I let y’all tear it to shreds)
5 Likes
Deathwake
(i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)
1023
we should definitely make a list like that required reading. no posting until you read all of whats been disproven first.
6 Likes
Deathwake
(i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)
1024
Please forgive my double posting, slow mode prevents me from editing.
List with reasons attached, adapted from Twilight’s original list.
Heh big list
Low melting point metals for Hydrothermal Vents
actually possible but doesnt allow anything stronger than gold.
Forges built around vents and somehow forcing water out to increase temperature
Temperature caps out low.
Scaly foot Gastropoda analog domestication for ‘metallic’ scales
Can’t be bred into larger shapes, and leaves you with at best two to three small, low quality pieces of metal you can make.
Electric Eel domestication as generators
Voltage, amps, whatever metric uses for this, all off the measurements are utterly inconsequential when compared to the quantities needed to run an arc forge or welder.
Bioengineering in general
Doesn’t adequately replace many technologies including but not limited to: firearms, steamships, computers, rockets, aircraft, engines, industrial factories, and construction with metal.
Mechanical Computers/intermediate instruments until metalworking
does not allow for any real computing power or economies of scale and doesn’t explain how one would get metal.
simple compasses /similar generators
does not explain how one would acquire metal.
Current utilization w/ waterwheel to generate electricity
same issue as with electric eels
Chemicals that burn in contact with water, typically isolated in caves
most do not burn at sufficient temperature and those that do require metals
Anything that can burn in water/Greek fire
as above
Thermite, phosphorous, etc
as above
Amphibious people
not a true underwater civ
Amphibious Slaves
either its trading with a land civ but not nicely or magically training monkeys to smelt.
Crustacean society
either solves nothing or is amphibious.
Crustaceans utilizing mostly seamless (only seams adapted to release extra heat/allow limb movement) going by mid ocean ridges to avoid predators and eventually smelting
no sufficient temperatures exist to smelt with
Octopi in shallows to Squid in depths symbiosis, idea specifically also had them on a Europa like planet and thinking about space by firing extremophile microbes through geysers, making rockets via ceramic plating and limpet teeth analogs.
old theory contingent on having not only both terrestrial and ice mooner geography but also smelting aluminium ore underwater somehow. not realistic.
Water wires carry electricity when separated from other water
useless.
Pressure forges force out water
requires oxygen, fuel, and ignition from unknown sources. pressure may not be sufficient i dont know for certain.
Biomaterials: woody something, bones, etc.
Useless for going to space, computers, and random chance if a planet has anything even somewhat useful.
Material unique to a planet
explain, also same issues as above.
Fire breathing Sea dragon with a forge in lungs
utter fantasy, no reason one of these would evolve, and having a forge in one’s lungs tends to result in death,
Amphibious beast of burden Carries sophont a to surface in water filled stomach/pouch
possible, but how does one forge from inside a frogs mouth? also societies don’t domesticate massive animals so the creature would have to be unbred, wild, tamed (read: less trained) and societies don’t tend to tame large animals without preexisting wealth,
Bubble Forge
insufficient oxygen, how are bubbles made anyways, what fuel, why would a stone age civ waste time on this?
Floating surface forges/fire
no idea, seems a bit crazy for a stone age civ to figure out and fuel is an issue but never seen anything damming.
Sulfate dissolving to ‘forge’
i dont know this one.
Fire in water Vapor?
impossible
Black Smokers can and do melt metal and have organisms adapted to them
not really, like, lead maybe? dissolved aluminum maybe? nothing useful.
Thallium Reactors
how in hell? also what for? poisoning everyone?
O2 from swim bladders/lungs
fuel where? sufficient oxygen = nope
Underwater launching rockets
made from what metal?
Alternate Tech Trees
unexplained rambling. specify what you want and then we’ll shoot that down.
Plants/Cellulose can be harder and lighter than steel, can be done irl, problem is isolating pure, mesoscopic cellulose
how to isolate cellulose? also doesnt make computers, steam engines, or rockets very well.
Cold Forging/Shaping
shaping what metal? native gold or copper is possible but useless.
Organism that soaks up water (to allow for space to forge)
life isn’t minecraft, when you remove water more rushes in.
Fluorine vs. Oxygen Burning
doesnt work underwater to my knowledge but this is one im least sure of.
CO2 bubble filter on bubble forge
useless.
Uplifting
litterally waiting for divine intervention isnt a viable solution.
Symbiosis w/ surface species
100% possible but unlikely.
Cave amphibians/Cave lakes forging
Basically amphibians with extra steps/you’d run out of oxygen.
Forging using Cave air pockets
above + how do you forge? telekinisis?
Stone Age w/ advancement but no tech (ex. Native Americans/Incans, etc.)
totally possible but useless you can’t get past society stage.
Bacteria bonding accidentally to dropped stone tools near vent, same bacteria creates Iron covered tools, similar to Scaly Foot Gastropoda irl
super cool idea, wildly unlikely, would make incredibly low quality iron, and wouldnt be scalable.
land suits
production unexplained, economies of scale needed, and land suits would most likely be mechanically impossible without metal.
Oh man here we go again… native gold,copper, iron or nickel are usefull for constructing underwater forges with connection to the air above, and smelt other types of metals.