Comments on Specific Development Forum Posts

[AnthropocenianAge (𝒜𝓇𝓉𝒽𝓇𝑜𝓅𝓁𝑒𝓊𝓇𝒶 𝓌𝒶𝓃𝓉𝓈 𝓉𝑜 𝑔𝒾𝓋𝑒 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒶 𝒽𝓊𝑔!)]

Would SA/V ratio be implemented as how it was discussed in this thread?

Surface Area, Volume, and Ratios

Or is further refinement needed before potential implementation (if does get added)?

[Poodelicus (Crazy, Curious, and Stubborn)]

Macroscopically, one of the biggest problems with size is getting oxygen and other resources to where they need to be, but for microscopic organisms that cover a large 2 dimensional area but are relatively thin, this is not a problem. For smaller organisms, surface area can be quite the boon. Some Amphibians breath through there skin, something which much larger Reptiles, Birds, and Mammals cannot do. Macroscopically, SA/V probably needs to be a thing, but Microbial Mats were once insanely successful despite having an insanely large surface area compared to there thickness.

Edit:

@Rathalos

Can you tell me that the below algae is having surface area problems?

Is that one singular Multicellular organism or a Colony of Single Celled Microscopic organisms? Because that could be the difference. Microbial Mats are Symbiotic Colonies of several separate types of Singled Celled Microscopic organisms.

[AnthropocenianAge (𝒜𝓇𝓉𝒽𝓇𝑜𝓅𝓁𝑒𝓊𝓇𝒶 𝓌𝒶𝓃𝓉𝓈 𝓉𝑜 𝑔𝒾𝓋𝑒 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒶 𝒽𝓊𝑔!)]

Didn’t Microbial Mats have layers of Aerobic and Anaerobic bacteria?

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Structure-of-microbial-mats-Armitage-et-al-2012_fig11_368451599

[Poodelicus (Crazy, Curious, and Stubborn)]

Yes, and what is really interesting is that they are not considered Multicellular. They are incredibly big colonies of several different types of Singled Celled Organisms that each have different functions and work together in Symbiosis.

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

To be fair are any bacteria known to form multicellular links with OTHER species of bacteria?

[Rathalos]

@AnthropocenianAge

Would SA/V ratio be implemented as how it was discussed in this thread?

Well, there were a few different versions discussed there, so I am not sure what we would land on now.

I do know for sure that we want it in Macroscopic, but I am not yet sure if it makes sense in Multicellular (or whether we would prioritise it over the other things we want to implement).

@Poodelicus

Macroscopically, one of the biggest problems with size is getting oxygen and other resources to where they need to be, but for microscopic organisms that cover a large 2 dimensional area but are relatively thin, this is not a problem.

Right, and some like the algae I posted are thin in 2 dimensions, which completely avoids the problem I believe.

@Poodelicus

For smaller organisms, surface area can be quite the boon. Some Amphibians breath through there skin, something which much larger Reptiles, Birds, and Mammals cannot do. Macroscopically, SA/V probably needs to be a thing, but Microbial Mats were once insanely successful despite having an insanely large surface area compared to there thickness.

@AnthropocenianAge

Didn’t Microbial Mats have layers of Aerobic and Anaerobic bacteria?

Right, microbial mats are a difference because the deeper species are actually taking advantage of the lowered diffusion exchange with the outside world.

But that is actually indicative of the scale where SA:V really begins to matter.

Also, Poodelicus, you say Microbial Mats were successful despite their high surface area compared to volume, but we’re so far exclusively speaking of low surface are compared to volume being a problem.

@Poodelicus

Is that one singular Multicellular organism or a Colony of Single Celled Microscopic organisms? Because that could be the difference. Microbial Mats are Symbiotic Colonies of several separate types of Singled Celled Microscopic organisms.

That’s indeed a multicellular organism. But what matters for the physics/chemistry here is that they all have pretty much the same metabolism, unlike those multi-layer microbial mats. So that’s where a low SA/V would be a problem.

@aah31415

To be fair are any bacteria known to form multicellular links with OTHER species of bacteria?

That comes down to your definition of “multicellular links”, which is not a defined term I believe.

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

I meant as in if those bacteria create multicellular organisms (on at least the level comparable to cyanobacteria and such) with (for this instance) other bacteria (so excluding the eukaryotes)

[AnthropocenianAge (𝒜𝓇𝓉𝒽𝓇𝑜𝓅𝓁𝑒𝓊𝓇𝒶 𝓌𝒶𝓃𝓉𝓈 𝓉𝑜 𝑔𝒾𝓋𝑒 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒶 𝒽𝓊𝑔!)]

Would Microbial Mats be considered as Macroscopic colony organisms?

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

I suppose so, since they may not be multicellular but they sure are macroscopic in total size. So similar to microbe clouds planned for macro+ for example.

[Rathalos]

@aah31415

I meant as in if those bacteria create multicellular organisms (on at least the level comparable to cyanobacteria and such) with (for this instance) other bacteria (so excluding the eukaryotes)

Well, they certainly do create a common extracellular matrix that they live inside. Comparable to a lichen, if nothing else.

@AnthropocenianAge

Would Microbial Mats be considered as Macroscopic colony organisms?

@aah31415

I suppose so, since they may not be multicellular but they sure are macroscopic in total size. So similar to microbe clouds planned for macro+ for example.

Yes, in Thrive terms I would say there will be mats as long as there are appropriate numbers of the right type of microbes simulated in the area. (and there aren’t a lot of animals disturbing the mats)

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

@Rathalos

Well, they certainly do create a common extracellular matrix that they live inside. Comparable to a lichen, if nothing else.

So more like a pretty integrated symbiotic relationship it is.

I presume the mats and their layers would be created from testing if the already existing species have the capacity to form those interlinked mats?

[AnthropocenianAge (𝒜𝓇𝓉𝒽𝓇𝑜𝓅𝓁𝑒𝓊𝓇𝒶 𝓌𝒶𝓃𝓉𝓈 𝓉𝑜 𝑔𝒾𝓋𝑒 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒶 𝒽𝓊𝑔!)]

I think all we need now are Methanogens (if they ever get added to the game) in order to accurately recreate Microbial Mats.

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

I don’t think we have time for that currently

[AnthropocenianAge (𝒜𝓇𝓉𝒽𝓇𝑜𝓅𝓁𝑒𝓊𝓇𝒶 𝓌𝒶𝓃𝓉𝓈 𝓉𝑜 𝑔𝒾𝓋𝑒 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒶 𝒽𝓊𝑔!)]

Maybe Iron-Hydrogen Sulfide chemolithotrophs would suffice?

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

Do we have a scientific basis to say they could fill in that niche?

[AnthropocenianAge (𝒜𝓇𝓉𝒽𝓇𝑜𝓅𝓁𝑒𝓊𝓇𝒶 𝓌𝒶𝓃𝓉𝓈 𝓉𝑜 𝑔𝒾𝓋𝑒 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒶 𝒽𝓊𝑔!)]

@AnthropocenianAge

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Structure-of-microbial-mats-Armitage-et-al-2012_fig11_368451599

In the last layer, there are sulfate reducers and Iron Sulfide rich sediments. I don’t know if Iron-Hydrogen Sulfate Chemolithotrophs alone would be sufficient for the last layer, but it is best Thrive could do with what it has.

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

I suppose if we have to we could swallow this thrivesin pill

[AnthropocenianAge (𝒜𝓇𝓉𝒽𝓇𝑜𝓅𝓁𝑒𝓊𝓇𝒶 𝓌𝒶𝓃𝓉𝓈 𝓉𝑜 𝑔𝒾𝓋𝑒 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒶 𝒽𝓊𝑔!)]

Yeah, and the fact that Thrive does not have anerobic photosynthesis, either…

[aah31415 (The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)]

I think it was planned at some point but it’s probably shelved by now

[Rathalos]

@AnthropocenianAge

In the last layer, there are sulfate reducers and Iron Sulfide rich sediments. Iron-Hydrogen Sulfide Chemolithotrophs

I am guessing you mean to say Iron-Hydrogen Sulfate Chemolithotrophs? (Or well, names can be confusing. but my point is they make Hydrogen Sulfide, they don’t consume it) By Thrive modelling, those would just be Iron oxidisers I believe.