I am glad to see options beyond a 10x Timescale difference being considered. Given the shear number of times that Single Celld organisms evolved to Multicellular IRL, the 10x difference would have been unrealistically limiting. I think 50% is a good idea, as Microbes could still catch up despite the disadvantage, allowing the possibility of more Multicellular lineages while still giving an advantage to the earlier ones. Except, arenโt some of the organelles more than 50 mutation points? Might it make more sense to have them evolve every other turn instead? Or perhaps make the difference equal to the highest costing organelle (which changes based on difficult mode doesnโt it?).
Although, I do still hope to see Size based Miches someday. A few giant Singled Celled organisms that could actually engulf my cell would be nice (as it currently usually only happens when I have just split and they are about ready to split).
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aah31415
(The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)
1306
This is what I had in mind for a long time, alongside the multi evo timer only being half of that of microbe and not 10x smaller
As a reminder: I think all cases of microbes not evolving at the same rate as Multicellular species would require them having separate miche nodes if we donโt want them to go extinct. It also needs consideration for how to handle population changes in general, but weโll have to get to that eventually with other timescale differences anyway.
Note that we were also looking at other ways of handling exactly this problem. For example, there will probably be a reservoir of single-celled species capable of going Multicellular. But we can trigger those at a different rate than normal evolution.
For example, a plan discussed before was a difficulty setting that โholds upโ other species going to the next stage to let you catch up.
But also (assuming a big timescale difference here), if you go to the Multicellular stage first and there are not many others, we can still trigger some of those near-multicellular species to go to this Stage whenever we want on the Multicellular Stage generations, we donโt have to keep to the Microbe Stage generations there.
So I donโt want you to look at this problem as if itโs critical to the timescale decision.
I believe the maximum cost of organelles is capped at 100, so that would not be a problem if we implement it as increased MP costs instead of reduced MP pool.
I believe the entire point of hhyyrylainenโs suggestion there was to avoid the infrastructure changes needed to make not all auto-evo run at the same time.
And what youโre suggesting here is I believe just the original idea for how to handle time scale differences.
Size-based miches are completely not necessary for this. Itโs just a case of making sure auto-evo properly uses size to make large predators. Miches specifically increasing size for no reason would just make less effective species.
Dev-build auto-evo already makes larger cells.
Personally, I donโt see as much of a point in a time-scale difference smaller than 10x.
Why not just let them run in parallel and avoid the headaches at that point?
4 Likes
aah31415
(The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)
1308
Currently I actually see no reason why the Aware Stage should be on a separate timescale from Macroscopic. If you look back to the timeline, the time from macroscopic animals to complex sentient life is much shorter than the time that has passed since.
3 Likes
aah31415
(The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)
1310
I suppose this would also eliminate issues with the evolution speed of some organisms like plants when youโre in aware
Given that Iron Ore will be a resource in the Social, Industrial, and Space Stages, as I see it, as long as the Ore deposits already exist in Macroscopic, assuming the creatures have a way to get pieces of it into their mouth (or equivalent), then whether or not it provides a sustainable amount of energy for their creature or whether or not their creature can get whatever other nutrients it needs (presuming that nutritional needs become implemented) should be more on the playerโs design than on the devs. Personally, I think a hybrid Iron/Glucose eater might be interesting, presuming again that the Ore deposits that eventually have to be there are already there and the ore can be gotten inside the creature. As for Radiosynthesis . . . no comment.
Would the amount of radiation from radioactive sources needed on the surface for long-term Radiosynthesis cause the surface to be more molten, or is that not necessarily the case?
This comes up frequently, but itโs actually impossible because youโve got the chemistry backwards. The iron ore you know of is already oxidised, so you canโt oxidise it for energy. The iron you eat in the microbe stage is a different form of iron, and youโre turning it into iron ore.
According to Wikipedia: Dissimilatory iron reducing bacteria: Under anaerobic conditions, IRB utilize ferric iron (Fe(III)) as a terminal electron acceptor Iron Ore: Ores containing very high quantities of hematite or magnetite (typically greater than about 60% iron) are known as natural ore Ferric: Iron(III) is found in many minerals and solids, e.g., oxide Fe2O3 (hematite) and iron(III) FeO(OH)
I read that as Hematite (Iron Ore) can be used for Iron Respiration. Magnetite (also Iron Ore), on the other hand, cannot. So as I understand it, you are half right. Some Iron Ore could be used as is and some could not.
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aah31415
(The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)
1317
So if they can differenciate the two correctly and theyโre in large enough amounts some hybrid organisms could make it?
Again a very common misconception, but Thrive has iron oxidation as a metabolism type to source energy. Iron respiration (using it as a terminal electron acceptor), thereby reducing it is quite literally the opposite process.
(and before you ask, a lot of the mechanics behind iron in Thrive only fit if itโs Iron(II) )
Iron reducing bacteria would be for example burning glucose using Iron (III) instead of oxygen.
Well youโre correct that half of the iron in magnetite is Iron (II), while all of the iron in hematite is Iron(III). Thatโs still not the opposite though, that would be something like siderite.
And I will correct your wording: โrespiringโ is generally used for the chemical you are reducing, not oxidising. So you would be oxidising the iron(II) in hematite, not respirating it. (While there are bacteria that will respire the Iron (III). The reason I correct the wording is because as you can probably tell, it makes a large difference.
So yes, if you can find a large amount of magnetite and thereโs a way to process it, you can extract energy from it. Probably not an enormous amount though.
4 Likes
aah31415
(The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)
1322
Especially after aerobic respiration becomes available itโd become much more lucrative to switch over to normal breathing
As I was saying, if large deposits of Magnetite exist in the game (and Iron Ore deposits in general will need to be in the game), and processing it is possible, the fact that it would be โnot an enormous amountโ of energy would be a constraint for the player to deal with. In most cases, this will likely be too much for the player to overcome, but I think it will be an interesting challenge to see how far it can be taken. In my opinion, it is only for the Devs to make it not be a first turn immediate extinction. If a Ferrosynthesis creature can become Macroscopic and can survive a full cycle to enter the editor as a Macroscopic creature, I think the Devs have more than done their job. If after a few turns the creature cannot manage to escape whatever predators pop up or migrate to the next nearest deposit, .
2 Likes
aah31415
(The maker of SitF, Radiostrocity, The Lifenote and TGBing; The Second Ascended...; And just maybe a security warning come alive...?)
1324
I think those creatures dying out to regular aerobes or even iron-heterotrophic hybrids seems like the most plausible thing thatโd happen
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