The gas wouldn’t be required, it just be vary useful. The dragon could also inhale the gas, and when it wants to dive for prey release it
I think we are forgetting that evolution has no forethought and no forward planning. We are discussing a trait - which seems to be fire-breathing in this case - and how it could be physiologically possible without considering how each of these components which would make fire-breath possible could potentially arise from certain features. We are essentially treating evolution as if it has a final product it wishes to reach (fire-breath) and will evolve certain specific adaptations for the sole purpose of gaining this trait.
Let’s look back at the eye.
When the first step towards a wonderfully complex organ such as our eyes were taken - evolving pigment spots - it wasn’t because there was a plan in place for the final product to be created. Rather, photo-receptive proteins evolved into pigment spots because it was extremely advantageous for an organism to be able to tell whether or not light was reaching it. For the next step of the eye’s evolution, the photo-receptor layer descended into a cup because it helped discern the direction from which light was coming from, which was incredibly advantageous when organisms started being able to move around rapidly. The same pattern emerges for every evolutionary step afterwards; a random mutation happens, it turns out to work in the current ecosystem, repeat, and now we have an eye, and we will have different forms of eyes in the future.
None of this was planned; despite how outlandish and perfect our eye seems, it was all a result of our ancestors continuously adapting to their current situation.
I see that we are deep in discussion about morphological features which could potentially lead to fire-breath. Two of the most recurring trends in this topic are gas bladders and stones. To me, the stones look the most feasible over the bladders, because I can easily see why an animal would want to ingest stones in the first place; it can be used to help with digestion.
But if we are talking about gas bladders, in what situation would having a gas bladder and just a gas bladder be useful? In other words, why would an animal want to evolve a gas bladder, and how could this be transformed into fire-breath with iterative steps that are each uniquely useful for their present environmental challenges? Fish have gas bladders, which helps them with controlling their depth; perhaps a gas bladder in flying organisms could be derived from an animal that was initially amphibious?
I feel like this is the best way to talk about a trait; not by brainstorming ways by which a trait could function and assuming that each independent feature evolves perfectly as if planned, but by looking at real-life counterparts and imagining how they could be used to fuel such fantastic abilities.
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I’ll just start with a fish. First, in order for the fish to escape predators, the fish rapidly fills up it’s gas bladder and shoots up, escaping the predators. Next, this process is improved to allow the fish to shoot out of the water, as predators have evolved to swim extremely fast(pursuing the fish up). Then, the fish grows primitive lungs to allow it to stay in the air for longer. Due to lowering sea levels and increased completion, the flippers form into primitive legs. Now, without as much predation, the animal uses it’s gas bladders and jumping legs to reach food higher in the trees.
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This directly links to why living blimps aren’t a thing, there would be a vulnerable transition stage where the animal would be facing multiple dangers in order to reach a stage at which it can float around efficiently enough to avoid predators and/or catch prey.
PS: (Very nice example by the way)
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First of all, the ability to rapidly blow up a gas bladder is already a large mutation (and, looking at how no fish IRL have that trick, not probable).
Second of all, the transition from sea to land is very difficult, and not something that’ll happen willy-nilly. I don’t know a single animal species that doesn’t stem from the single lung fish species.
Last of all, the gas bladders that might’ve worked underwater will be way less help above water (for the same reason submarines can’t fly). If anything it might evolve as a way to ‘glide’, like the gliding squirrels: they can’t fly, but they can fall slowly. However, due to the fact that they can’t really glide, but rather float, they won’t be fast either.
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On the second point, you are definitely right, but in order to make sure that a player can thoroughly enjoy Thrive with as few restrictions as possible, I think it should be a bit more feasible for the player’s organism to make that transition. Realism is definitely a priority in this game, but I would think that the player’s freedom in what they can choose to do should be the counterpart to this realism. The balance between these two should be discussed in depth.
Not fully related to this topic, but looking through this thread, I’m really starting to believe that “upgrades” and a “skill tree” of some sort should be a big component of evolution throughout each stage, in which several adaptations are related to each other as they are in the real world.
For example, let’s go back to the eye. During the stage in which organisms have become complex enough to benefit from the development of vision, the game could offer a few variations of pigment spots which can also be customized by the player. As the player progresses, these pigment spots could have several “skill branches” that they could deviate into; for example, maybe one path introduces the development of thermal pigment spots, which can then be “upgraded” into a toggle thermal vision. Another could perhaps further the distance at which a species can see. Each variation of the pigments could have different “skill tree” paths that are offered to them; furthermore, the player could only see maybe one or up to two upgrades in the future ahead of your current upgrade stage to simulate the fact that evolution isn’t planned, but is merely a byproduct of what is best for the current environment.
If handled in a way that individualizes our skill tree to be unique to Thrive such that it doesn’t feel too gamey and feels like a legitimately fun way to simulate random but efficient evolution, it could be extremely beneficial for replay-ability. Imagine canoodling along in the Aware Stage and you discover that you have the ability to upgrade to a chemical spray, similar to that of the bombardier beetle; I’d be pleasantly surprised.
I feel like I could draw a concept art for this. Beware of a potential double post.
A skill tree sounds like a good idea, but it would stay as a separate tab to choosing your own animal parts, which you can then customize in accordance with your skill tree choices.
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Living balloons could be plausible. For example, if you had something like a cave dwelling “cowbird” animal, then they may evolve to store their burp gas in their air sacs.
I’m beginning to like the idea of some sort of ‘skill tree’. There could be functions and components of an organic structure that the player can’t really make by sculpting their organism on the macroscopic scale. Maybe this is how hormones and chemical responses should be handled.
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I mean, Insects and other invertebrates?
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Huh yeah nevermind. Apparently insects stem from the crustaceans, which have a different (again unique) respiratory system. However, it is not possible to size the system up, so the ‘massive dragon’ would be around the size of a scorpion. The same goes for invertebrates.
does anyone think that atomic breath can evolve. maybe it could evolve from feeding off of radiation? also what about bones made of iron?
At its core, radiation is just really strong electromagnetic waves, like light. Also like light, it offers no nutritional value, unless you want to employ it as photosynthesis on steroids? I just don’t see how a creature could just discharge this sort of energy or even stocking it without hurting itself.
Right because if there’s anything this realistic evolution simulator needs it’s the ability to literally barf nuclear power on people like mf Godzilla.
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Also (please tell me if I’m wrong) I don’t think anyone has discussed the conditions of different planets atmosphere. A super dense atmosphere would make it a lot easier to have giant flying creatures. Gravity could also play into this. In addition to the fire-breathing conversation atmosphere could also impact this. Extremely flammable gases could make it an easier and more realistic transition to fire breathing, as opposed to evolving down a difficult and unlikely path. Please tell me your thoughts on this.
Edit: Also I have no idea if different conditions like atmosphere and gravity will be changeable in game.
The issue is that denser atmospheres are usually the result of larger planets, which in turn have higher gravity.
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Nice logic. Honestly I’m impressed. What do you think about the fire breath then?
tbf I mostly based it on a thread a couple weeks back on reddit where someone thought chicken might be able to fly on mars but someone mentioned the fact that mars has a thinner atmosphere too…
While I do think it might technically be possible using the wonders of genetic modification to skip the whole evolutionary hassle, naturally speaking it’s impossible due to there not just being any theoretical possibility of fire breath where even partial versions of it will be beneficial.
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Why would atomic breath be helpful? If it was used in order to harm other creatures, they would get a face full of radio-activeness that would only slowly kill them later down the line.
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actually people have discovered radiation eating bacteria in the chernobyl nuclear reactor. i don’t know either but i can’t imagine it would be much harder than learning to protect yourself from the solar radiation and if you give it enough time life can conquer any feet no matter how crazy it seems.
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