How can we make fire a requirement in the context of Thrive as a game?

[BurgeonBlas]

Elephants, for example, appear to be unable to use fire from my research, despite being smart enough to understand mirrors and form simple religions

[Luzurper]

@BurgeonBlas

We can’t just sacrifice all realism because people want to play with fire, especially if we want to use realism to justify cutting off major types of civilization

What realism? Fire is a major component of civilization, if you don’t have the tech to advance, you don’t have the tech to advance
If I don’t have a knowledge of aerodynamics, then I cant build machines to fly
If I don’t know rocket science, then I cant build rockets to get to space
It’s how it works now, if your cell isn’t adapted to the current environment you go extinct. That’s how evolution works
Adapt, or die

[Luzurper]

Religion? What evidence do you have of elephants having a religion???
And while elephants and other animals show signs of intelligence, it’s not on the level of a human, could they evolve to form more complicated brains and a higher intelligence? Maybe, but they are no where near a human intelligence wise.
Intelligence is just just another factor of what technology they can use, some animals are intelligent enough to (somewhat) use tools, but they arnt doing anything on the complexity a human can accomplish

[BurgeonBlas]

@Luzurper

Fire is a major component of civilization

It’s a major component of our civilization. There are many plausible-seeming ways of advancing without it. For example, it doesn’t seem impossible to simply not have tech that needs fire until you’re approaching industrial stage

@Luzurper

And while elephants and other animals show signs of intelligence, it’s not on the level of a human, could they evolve to form more complicated brains and a higher intelligence? Maybe, but they are no where near a human intelligence wise

Either way, intelligence and fire are barely correlated any more than kidneys and hair, and there’s no good evidence I’ve seen of a connection

[Luzurper]

@BurgeonBlas

It’s a major component of our civilization. There are many plausible-seeming ways of advancing without it. For example, it doesn’t seem impossible to simply not have tech that needs fire until you’re approaching industrial stage

Can you give some examples?

@BurgeonBlas

Either way, intelligence and fire are barely correlated any more than kidneys and hair, and there’s no good evidence I’ve seen of a connection

Please tell me you are joking

[Oncpapa]

I’m done, this has gone in a circle

[Luzurper]

Yeah I’ve stopped taking him seriously now

[OoferDoofer (Certified, Authorized, Qualified, Recognized, Ratified, Formalized)]

@BurgeonBlas if you want to be taken seriously, then instead of placing the burden of disproving your outlandish claims on other people, you should take it upon yourself to prove them.

[BurgeonBlas]

@Luzurper

Can you give some examples?

I just gave one: Simply ommiting fiery tools. You can still make ploughs, mechanisms, and rather dangerous weapons without any fire required

@Luzurper

Please tell me you are joking

What’s the joke? There are fire-using animals with rather meagre-seeming minds (firehawks, perhaps chimps), and many intelligent species with no evidence of fire (elephants). That seems a lot like there’s no correlation

@OoferDoofer

You should take it upon yourself to prove them

I’ve shown that fire and intelligence are poorly linked at best, I’ve explained why fire might be easy for a player to ignore, and I’ve shown where this presents a problem. What other claims are there that I have failed to evidence?

[Deathwake (i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)]

also, um, what the hell do you want?? im still confused about that, explain it to me like im five, cause all i see is you complaining about softlocks that maybe exist, like, whats the end goal?

[BurgeonBlas]

@Deathwake

What the hell do you want??

I’m asking if anyone can present a way to make fire a requirement without softlocking or otherwise screwing over players who do not have a complete understanding of fire and who are likely to miss out on fire use

[Luzurper]

@BurgeonBlas

I just gave one: Simply ommiting fiery tools. You can still make ploughs, mechanisms, and rather dangerous weapons without any fire required

Yes but what about chemical processes that require fire?
Light sources?
The use of metals?
Just saying “they can use stone tools” proves nothing, they are just literally stuck in the stone age, but without fire

@BurgeonBlas

What’s the joke? There are fire-using animals with rather meagre-seeming minds (firehawks, perhaps chimps), and many intelligent species with no evidence of fire (elephants). That seems a lot like there’s no correlation

Examples of this? Not just “trust me bro”

@BurgeonBlas

I’ve shown that fire and intelligence are poorly linked at best, I’ve explained why fire might be easy for a player to ignore, and I’ve shown where this presents a problem. What other claims are there that I have failed to evidence?

You just contradicted yourself
Edit: my apologies I misread what you said about the elephants using fire, with them not being able to, but even then it’s as I said, they are just not on a higher intelligence level to do so

[OoferDoofer (Certified, Authorized, Qualified, Recognized, Ratified, Formalized)]

@BurgeonBlas

You can still make ploughs, mechanisms, and rather dangerous weapons without any fire required

Way more things come from fire than you think. For example, glass blowing has come from fire usage. Without it we would know basically no astronomy.Fire is definitely needed before the industrial stage.

[Luzurper]

Not to mention the use of pottery

[BurgeonBlas]

@Luzurper

Yes but what about chemical processes that require fire?
Light sources?
The use of metals?

They don’t need chemistry from day one, suns exist, and a lot of things that need metal have alternatives when you really need them

@Luzurper

Examples of this?

@BurgeonBlas

There are fire-using animals with rather meagre-seeming minds (firehawks, perhaps chimps), and many intelligent species with no evidence of fire (elephants)

---

@Luzurper

They are just not on a higher intelligence level to do so

So what about firehawks? Are they smarter than elephants?

@OoferDoofer

Without it we would know basically no astronomy

Why do we need astronomy before we have industry? That’s not the best argument

Also, if not requiring fire won’t work, what’s the alternative for Thrive? Do you think softlocking half of all players in the middle of the game is an acceptable sacrifice to avoid an industrial society not knowing astronomy?

[Luzurper]

@BurgeonBlas

There are fire-using animals with rather meagre-seeming minds (firehawks, perhaps chimps), and many intelligent species with no evidence of fire (elephants)

You just restated what you said, what evidence do you have for this? From a video of them using it? A research paper? I said I don’t want just a “trust me bro”

@BurgeonBlas

They don’t need chemistry from day one, suns exist, and a lot of things that need metal have alternatives when you really need them

Stone is inferior to metal, and if they ever hope to advance at all, metal is needed, you cant build a steam engine out of wood or stone

[fralegend015 (Shroudmaster)]

@BurgeonBlas

I’m asking if anyone can present a way to make fire a requirement without softlocking or otherwise screwing over players

Simple, make it so a player can get fire in any moment they want if the requirements are fulfilled. I have no idea why you havent come up with such an obvious solution.

[BurgeonBlas]

@Luzurper

You just restated what you said, what evidence do you have for this? From a video of them using it? A research paper?

Have you tried using google? It’s not hard to find out about animals using and not using fire

@Luzurper

Stone is inferior to metal, and if they ever hope to advance at all, metal is needed

Wood exists, and people have made some crazy stuff with it. Oftentimes they used wood even when they had access to metal (for example, windmills)

@fralegend015

I have no idea why you havent come up with such an obvious solution

Because it is not realistic

[TeaKing (The modTEArator)]

Holy belgium thats a lot
Well this is the FOURTH TIME now
Sorry burgeon but you were warned before
This thread is getting locked

[Luzurper]

@BurgeonBlas

Have you tried using google? It’s not hard to find out about animals using and not using fire

Ok fine so I googled animals using fire and all I can find about it as that Firehawks can pick up sticks on fire and make dry grass catch on fire to draw out pray, and chimps using it to to cook food, but neither can create their own fire

@BurgeonBlas

Wood exists, and people have made some crazy stuff with it. Oftentimes they used wood even when they had access to metal (for example, windmills)

Wood is inferior to metal in a lot of ways, you ever seen a wood engine? A wood skyscraper? A wood rocket? Metal is a requirement for more advanced things