Actual debate with scientific units, and not just theoretical equations, with the goal of actually solving with constructive criticism and not self-destructing arguments.
“Must be universal units, idk”
This is the list from @Deathwake
Please forgive my double posting, slow mode prevents me from editing.
List with reasons attached, adapted from Twilight’s original list.
Heh big list
Low melting point metals for Hydrothermal Vents
actually possible but doesnt allow anything stronger than gold.
Forges built around vents and somehow forcing water out to increase temperature
Temperature caps out low.
Scaly foot Gastropoda analog domestication for ‘metallic’ scales
Can’t be bred into larger shapes, and leaves you with at best two to three small, low quality pieces of metal you can make.
Electric Eel domestication as generators
Voltage, amps, whatever metric uses for this, all off the measurements are utterly inconsequential when compared to the quantities needed to run an arc forge or welder.
Bioengineering in general
Doesn’t adequately replace many technologies including but not limited to: firearms, steamships, computers, rockets, aircraft, engines, industrial factories, and construction with metal.
Mechanical Computers/intermediate instruments until metalworking
does not allow for any real computing power or economies of scale and doesn’t explain how one would get metal.
simple compasses /similar generators
does not explain how one would acquire metal.
Current utilization w/ waterwheel to generate electricity
same issue as with electric eels
Chemicals that burn in contact with water, typically isolated in caves
most do not burn at sufficient temperature and those that do require metals
Anything that can burn in water/Greek fire
as above
Thermite, phosphorous, etc
as above
Amphibious people
not a true underwater civ
Amphibious Slaves
either its trading with a land civ but not nicely or magically training monkeys to smelt.
Crustacean society
either solves nothing or is amphibious.
Crustaceans utilizing mostly seamless (only seams adapted to release extra heat/allow limb movement) going by mid ocean ridges to avoid predators and eventually smelting
no sufficient temperatures exist to smelt with
Octopi in shallows to Squid in depths symbiosis, idea specifically also had them on a Europa like planet and thinking about space by firing extremophile microbes through geysers, making rockets via ceramic plating and limpet teeth analogs.
old theory contingent on having not only both terrestrial and ice mooner geography but also smelting aluminium ore underwater somehow. not realistic.
Water wires carry electricity when separated from other water
useless.
Pressure forges force out water
requires oxygen, fuel, and ignition from unknown sources. pressure may not be sufficient i dont know for certain.
Biomaterials: woody something, bones, etc.
Useless for going to space, computers, and random chance if a planet has anything even somewhat useful.
Material unique to a planet
explain, also same issues as above.
Fire breathing Sea dragon with a forge in lungs
utter fantasy, no reason one of these would evolve, and having a forge in one’s lungs tends to result in death,
Amphibious beast of burden Carries sophont a to surface in water filled stomach/pouch
possible, but how does one forge from inside a frogs mouth? also societies don’t domesticate massive animals so the creature would have to be unbred, wild, tamed (read: less trained) and societies don’t tend to tame large animals without preexisting wealth,
Bubble Forge
insufficient oxygen, how are bubbles made anyways, what fuel, why would a stone age civ waste time on this?
Floating surface forges/fire
no idea, seems a bit crazy for a stone age civ to figure out and fuel is an issue but never seen anything damming.
Sulfate dissolving to ‘forge’
i dont know this one.
Fire in water Vapor?
impossible
Black Smokers can and do melt metal and have organisms adapted to them
not really, like, lead maybe? dissolved aluminum maybe? nothing useful.
Thallium Reactors
how in hell? also what for? poisoning everyone?
O2 from swim bladders/lungs
fuel where? sufficient oxygen = nope
Underwater launching rockets
made from what metal?
Alternate Tech Trees
unexplained rambling. specify what you want and then we’ll shoot that down.
Plants/Cellulose can be harder and lighter than steel, can be done irl, problem is isolating pure, mesoscopic cellulose
how to isolate cellulose? also doesnt make computers, steam engines, or rockets very well.
Cold Forging/Shaping
shaping what metal? native gold or copper is possible but useless.
Organism that soaks up water (to allow for space to forge)
life isn’t minecraft, when you remove water more rushes in.
Fluorine vs. Oxygen Burning
doesnt work underwater to my knowledge but this is one im least sure of.
CO2 bubble filter on bubble forge
useless.
Uplifting
litterally waiting for divine intervention isnt a viable solution.
Symbiosis w/ surface species
100% possible but unlikely.
Cave amphibians/Cave lakes forging
Basically amphibians with extra steps/you’d run out of oxygen.
Forging using Cave air pockets
above + how do you forge? telekinisis?
Stone Age w/ advancement but no tech (ex. Native Americans/Incans, etc.)
totally possible but useless you can’t get past society stage.
Bacteria bonding accidentally to dropped stone tools near vent, same bacteria creates Iron covered tools, similar to Scaly Foot Gastropoda irl
super cool idea, wildly unlikely, would make incredibly low-quality iron, and wouldn’t be scalable.
land suits
production unexplained, economies of scale needed, and land suits would most likely be mechanically impossible without metal.
Mostly just research into the possible solutions above, and contribute to them
Try to not manipulate the environment unphysically, as in changing temp, density, and crust, cuz the only life-sustaining planet we know as earth, so having everything mostly the same will help a lot.
no evolving other creatures besides the main species, bacteria are in a grey zone here, where it’s possible, not practical.
In short, we need something that’s possible and practical, I hope this isn’t taken
I have followed @hhyyrylainen advice, using SI units, and practicality as opposed to possibility so here’s our first objective, be sure to state evidence, and cite your sources, MLA, or whatever you want, I need a source that isn’t bs
1 - Brainstorming
Many options on there are not available to discuss, but we need brainstorming, operation structure
Brainstorming–> Selecting → Prove → Brainstorming (Again, but specialized to the idea) → Selecting → Prove
If it fails we do it again, just no
altering the environment non physically
forcing other species to evolve
trade with supposed other land species
use non-SI units
IMPORTANT - environment must have earth-like conditions, with little not no leeway
Hehehehe, if that was the issue this thread wouldn’t have even been created, life as we know, is the fundamentals of physics.
Also, update on hydrothermal vent info,
Hydrothermal vents emit sulfur and metals to the ocean 1. Particular attention has been paid to hydrothermal fluxes of iron2,3,4, a limiting micronutrient of marine primary production5. Vent-derived iron was previously thought to rapidly oxidize and precipitate around vents6. May 8, 2011
Hydrothermal vents as a kinetically stable source of iron …
Basically, issue 1 is that the iron would instantly oxidize, unallowing any forging and gathering of such iron. that slightly increases the chance of forging, the problems are gathering and actual shaping, not to mention how you would innovate such a technique.
A quick google search churns out that some hydrothermal vents can reach beyond 673.15 kelvin, [
Graphite is a very good conductor, but we need to brainstorm a way to first generate electricity if we want to use electricity to make heat to smelt metal.
There are electrical cells that can be added to a body, such as crab//crustation this is a fairly simple evolutionary path, but may cut off some things in the future, like sight, because there’s no real need for it. This may solve your problem, for the possibility, but il do some research involving the resistance of Iron, and the possibility of graphene as a conducted for specialized electrical conduits.
more likely, the best option for the current goal of the metal age (Right now), is the possibility that you can fit enough electrical cells onto a living being to smelt iron in the open ocean, ill need to do some lengthy research on that, but it should be possible, id says a 67% chance it might work. I don’t honestly know why we need a way to use this electricity to smelt metal, because it’s rhetorical.
you need metal to make electricity to make metal, there is almost a 0% chance of doing that normally, the most likely option for the route you take is one of using electrical organs and cells, as seen in electrical eels. THough ill get back to you with more “Real data”, ill do the calculations when I have time.
TL:DR - You got it all wrong, but it might work if we turn into eels
At least underwater you don’t need to worry about the wheel being among those. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Deathwake
(i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)
19
yes you do need the wheel. It’s for gears, moving objects on land, moving objects that sink very quickly, for lathes, for pottery wheels, and for many mechanical components that use wheels
UndyingHazard
(What is already dead may never die.)
20
Unsure if this has been suggested before but maybe if the aquatic species still needed water to breathe but could essentially hold its “breath” outside of the water for long periods of time, kind of like the real life Epaulette shark which can survive in oxygen poor and or extremely shallow water by temporarily shutting off non-essential functions and increasing blood flow to the brain. I don’t know if that would count as amphibious or not so this suggestion may not count.
Deathwake
(i nuked zenzone and will never let him forget it)
22
basically you have to be really close to amphibious for that to even kinda work. I honestly think underwater civs will just be stone age, amphibious, or uplifted. Be a fun challenge run though
